Tony Nicholas

April 5, 2008 at 4:19 pm

You only like his post because it fits in with your world view Rachel. This post is not about acceptance per se, as much as it is about acceptance of your world view.

You are not taking on board any of the contrary views at all.

I find it offensive that you would even consider this bit:

“….So I am a dying breed of Deaf people……….”

I don’t suppose you do irony, do you?

shel

April 5, 2008 at 5:44 pm

I agree with you, Tony. It is great that this person is very understanding but what does it take for you, Rachel, to be just as open-minded as well? This is not a put down of you as a person but I have read several of your posts and I dont see anything supporting ASL and the Deaf culture. Yet, you want us to support you and your views?

deafchipmunk

April 5, 2008 at 6:37 pm

I find your article purely biased. I do not agree with it at all. You have always taken advantage of a few people’s comments. I have known that you have never accepted ASL and Culture and have kept indirectly attacking ASL and Culture in order to gain your ideologies. I have to be blunt with you is that you behaviour is unacceptable. If you said you support ASL and culture for any children, then I would not comment that in the first place. But you never did that; therefore, I criticise your invalid one sided beliefs. I believe your comment may have harmed many innocent Deaf children. I have already seen them and you cannot deny the facts. You should have made reasonable approach but you have degraded ASL and Culture. That is, in my opinion, HATE LITERATURE! You are no better than other people I have known.

Deafchip

ron

April 5, 2008 at 7:03 pm

Open minded, oh where is yours? Attiude is the answer for all blogs you have done! Bring it on…

Rachel

April 5, 2008 at 7:08 pm

I’m here to educate and inform others about cochlear implants, AVT, and my views. I’m not here to ask people to agree with me. If you don’t like what I say, don’t bother coming to my site. I don’t need to deal with people like you. You can choose to disagree with me, but there’s no reason to be rude or ask me to change my mind. I didn’t say anywhere in the entry that you all should change your point of view or you should go with Open-Minded Deaf person’s views. I was just sharing his views and saying that I admire what he said. If you think that I don’t understand well about the Deaf Culture or ASL, please explain politely why ASL and Deaf Culture is important to you. Your rudeness will continue to turn me away from wanting to learn about the Deaf Culture and ASL.

Rachel

April 5, 2008 at 7:49 pm

Also, I’m mainly a spokesperson for deaf children who use CIs and AVT approach. As long as I continue to see the successes of deaf children using CIs and the AVT approach, I will continue to support them. I’ve met hundreds of CI children who have successes with their CIs and the AVT/oral approach. You just have not yet met several probably because:

- You have not been to CI conventions or any kind of CI events.

- You have not visited an AVT center.

- You have not seen other CI users raised with the AVT approach speaking up online like me. Deaf people who I personally know that have success with AVT and their CIs are not willing to speak up because they’re afraid they’ll be attacked by the deaf community who believe in ASL and Deaf culture and/or think it’s a waste of time to debate with them, and I don’t blame them.

If I saw a large number deaf people not having any success with their CIs and/or AVT approach, I would certainly have a different viewpoint.

It’s OK for everyone to have different viewpoints, just as long as we respect each other’s feelings and educate each other respectfully. We may not come to an agreement, but we can certainly help each other understand better why we feel the way we do.

Wondering

April 5, 2008 at 8:09 pm

Dear Rachel,

I have enjoyed reading your blog. You have let the world look through a window into your life. That’s very brave of you and I admire that. I personally would rather stay out of the “debate” that has raged on, so that’s why I’m writing this anonymously.

Just so you have an idea of where I come from. I’m part of a group of people who are probably unrepresented in the blog-sphere. I know sign language, yet I function very well in the mainstream. Some call us hard-of-hearing. I’ve never bothered much with labels.

Recently I started reading these online blogs through deafread.com and I’ve found them very interesting. What has continued to disappoint me is that nobody cites any academic research. When I’m keenly interested in an issue, I use lexis-nexis or other sources to search for peer-reviewed journals. I haven’t been able to find any good journal articles showing the success of CIs. Could you do a blog introducing readers to available research?

I did come across a journal article by a Gallaudet professor about the lack of success of CIs. Maybe this is another blog idea for you. The link is: http://www.perspectiva.ufsc.br/perspectiva_2006_especial/03_Robert.pdf.

Yours,
Wondering

Melissa

April 5, 2008 at 8:22 pm

Here are some citations of professional research:

“Factors Affecting the Development of Speech, Language, and Literacy
in Children With Early Cochlear Implantation”
Ann E. Geers, Central Institute for the Deaf, St. Louis, MO LANGUAGE, SPEECH, AND HEARING SERVICES IN SCHOOLS • Vol. 33 • 172–183 • July 2002

“Use of an oral communication mode contributed significant variance to all outcomes except for spoken and signed language. The greater the emphasis on speech and auditory skill development the better the outcome. Type of classroom reflects amount of time spent in a mainstream class. This variable was significant for speech production, language and reading.

“…Children whose educational program emphasized dependence on speech and audition for communication were better able to use the information provided by the implant to hear, speak and read. Use of sign communication with implanted children did not promote auditory and speech skill development and did not result in an advantage for overall English language competence even when the outcome measure included sign language. Oral education appears to be an important educational choice for children who have received a cochlear implant before 5 years of age.”

Language Skills of Children with Early Cochlear Implantation
Geers, Ann E.; Nicholas, Johanna G.; Sedey, Allison L.
Ear & Hearing. 24(1) Supplement:46S-58S, February 2003

Use of a cochlear implant has had a dramatic impact on the linguistic competence of profoundly hearing-impaired children. More than half of the children in this sample with average learning ability produced and understood English language at a level comparable with that of their hearing age mates. Such mature language outcomes were not typical of children with profound hearing loss who used hearing aids. Use of a visual (i.e., sign) language system did not provide the linguistic advantage that had been anticipated. Children educated without use of sign exhibited a significant advantage in their use of narratives, the breadth of their vocabulary, in their use of bound morphemes, in the length of their utterances and in the complexity of the syntax used in their spontaneous language. An oral educational focus provided a significant advantage for both spoken and total language skills.

Use of Speech by Children From Total Communication Programs Who Wear Cochlear Implants
Ann Geers 1, Brent Spehar, Allison Sedey 2
1 Central Institute for the Deaf, St. Louis, MO
2 University of Colorado, Boulder” American Journal of Speech-Language Pathology Vol.11 50-58 February 2002. doi:10.1044/1058-0360(2002/006)

Results revealed a wide range of mode preference, with some children using primarily speech, some primarily sign, and some using both modes to varying extents. Not only did speech users achieve higher auditory speech perception scores and speech intelligibility ratings, but they also demonstrated better comprehension and use of English syntax than did children who used little or no speech. After 3 years with an implant, speech users were more likely than children who used little or no speech to be placed in mainstream educational programs.

Auditory-Verbal Graduates:Outcome Survey of Clinical Efficacy” Donald M. Goldberg, Carol Flexer”
J Am Acad Audiol 12 : 406-414 (2001)

“Graduates of auditory-verbal programs
appear to become the “”anonymous deaf.””
They are in our local schools and blend into
higher education and various jobs, professions,
and careers…. Mohr
et al (2001) concluded that “”aggressive and early
intervention to reduce the level of hearing
impairment may produce savings to society.””
They appeared to be referring to reducing the
“”impact”” of hearing impairment. Our findings
similarly suggest that graduates who began
their auditory-verbal program in the late 1940s
through the current date have indeed achieved
the stated goal of auditory-verbal practice : independence
in today’s mainstream society.”

Relationship Between Communication Mode and Implant Performance in Pediatric CLARION Patients
Mary Joe Osberger, Ph.D., Susan Zimmerman-Phillips, MS., Laurel Fisher, Ph. D., Advanced Bionics Corporation, Sylmar, CA”
Paper presented at 1997 5th International Cochlear Implant Conference, May 1-3, 1996, New York, NY.

The relationship between preoperative communication mode (auditory/oral or total communication) and postoperative performance on a battery of audiological outcome measures was examined in pediatric patients who received the CLARION cochlear implant. The results revealed that both groups of children (children who used oral communication and children who used total communication) showed significant improvement in performance postoperatively with the CLARION relative to their preoperative performance with hearing aids. The mean scores of the children who used oral communication, however, were significantly higher than those of the children who used total communication on all of the outcome measures.

Approach to communication, speech perception and intelligibility after paediatric cochlear implantation
S.M. Archbold, T.P. Nikolopoulos, M. Tait, G.M. O’Donoghue, M.E. Lutman and S. Gregory
British Journal of Audiologist, 2000, 34, 257-264

The present study revealed that, on measures of speech perception and intelligibility obtained three, four and five years after implantation, children using oral communication outperformed those using signed communication.

Classroom performance of children who are hearing impaired who learned spoken communication through the Auditory-Verbal approach
Wray, D., Flexer, C., & Vaccaro, V
The Volta Review, 1997, 99 (2), 107-119

Robertson and Flexer (1993) studied the performance on standardized reading tests by 37 school-age children, ages 6 to 19 years, who participated in various auditory-verbal programs. Their results revealed that 30 of the subjects (the majority of whom had severe to profound hearing losses) read in the average range or higher compared with their normally hearing peers. Schildroth and Karchmer (1986) reported nationwide reading-comprehension scores for 15 to 18 year olds with hearing losses who were educated in various settings and who used various communication modalities. The scores showed average reading performance at about the third-grade level.

Tony Nicholas

April 5, 2008 at 8:50 pm

Rachel,

This is your log, no one disputes that. You bahve your point of view, no one dispoutes that.

Speaking to youa s a deaf person, who ha sbeen where you are now, the fact is, if someone posts an opposing view, you are incapable or unwilling to take it on board. Your refusal to engage with your critics, no matter how conciliatory, is what makes me question the veracity of your position.

Respect for a viewpoint, is not given just because you present it. If it can survive a critical mauling, then there must be something of value in it.

Your refusal to engage, as a deaf perosn, headon with your, deaf and Deaf, critics or opposing views, renders your position precarious.

If you want respect for your veiwpoints, then you must write respectfully…… of which this post, makes me question your comprehension abilities.

Of which you have chosen to ignore this bit:

“…So I am a dying breed of Deaf people………” This is a rather sad position to be in. To have one’s own self worth rendered valueless, and the only redeeming feature is a future of implants…

shel

April 5, 2008 at 9:55 pm

Rachel,

I work with deaf children including those who have been implanted. I have seen some children who were successful with speech and listening skills and many who werent successful. In fact, those who werent successful are severely delayed in language because they didnt have full acess to language during the first 5 years of life. To me, AVT is putting these children at risk cuz we will never know who will succeed or who will not succeed. With ASL, because it is a visual language, these kids will guaranteed to have full acess to language. That is why I do not support AVT and strictly oral-only approaches. While u have seen the successes, I have seen both. Have u seen what happens to children who are deprived of language because their parents desperately want them to hear and speak like hearing children?

It is a disgrace to these children and it needs to be stopped.

Barb DiGi

April 5, 2008 at 10:14 pm

Just want to clarify several things especially about DBC and the purpose of the convention that this author has apparently misunderstood what DBC and the conference is all about. I find it interesting how you call this open minded person who rushed to make judgment about DBC. DBC has not even announced the details of the conference yet but let me tell you what it is about so far.

It is not about CI that DBC is fighting for, it is about providing language access, ASL, that is, to Deaf babies, with or without CIs. The research that Melissa provided is flawed since there numerous research documents that outnumber Melissa’s proving that obtaining a visual language does have benefits. Feel free to browse at deafbilingualcoalition.com or deafbilingual.blogspot.com under the category, resource. I can tell you some of the research findings that using signs with babies have increased 12 points or more of I.Q., vocabulary, literacy, speech skils and so on.

Attending to the educational conference will be made visible to AG Bell goers and to educate them about this side of the coin. There will be keynote speakers who carry doctorate degrees and have studied in bilingualism, workshops and sessions to educate the participants to join hands with parents of Deaf babies. All parents are welcome and unlike AG Bell charging a whooping 400 bucks for registration, DBC doesn’t even charge a penny for registration! DBC is there to welcome parents with open arms, not to fight. We just want to share the information with them about the reality of Deaf babies’ needs.

Remember DBC is not being closed minded or against those who achieve listening and speech, it is AG Bell who is being closed minded to the idea of encouraging bilingual approach that is to use ASL as a first language acquisition. I would recommend you to read the mission, goals and purposes of DBC in their website more carefully and not to haste to make quick false judgment. And another thing to remember is that not all CI children are successful with AVT approach. What would you do with them? Imagine if they have ASL as a safety net in the first place, the it will make it more possible for them to bridge English more effectively. Don’t we want that?

Barb DiGi

April 5, 2008 at 10:17 pm

Correction: Imagine if they have ASL as a safety net in the first place, THEN it will make it more possible for them to bridge English more effectively.

Rox

April 5, 2008 at 10:21 pm

Rachel, have you met successful people that were raised with the ASL or bi-bi approach?

Rachel

April 5, 2008 at 10:26 pm

Barb DiGi,

The problem that I have with DBC is that they’re not giving parents of deaf children who know how to raise their deaf children with the AVT approach properly by being dedicated and involved with their children’s lives the option not to use ASL in their life. Just simply adding ASL will not necessarily always improve their children’s lives because there are parents who can have crappy ASL skills which will certainly affect children’s language development.

Choosing to use ASL should be a personal choice, not a mandatory choice.

Rachel

April 5, 2008 at 10:30 pm

Rox,

I have not met any successful people who were raised with bi-bi approach except for the ones on DeafRead. The ones who I have met in person have very unintelligible speech.

David

April 5, 2008 at 10:33 pm

Rachel,
The comment #10 mirrors my personal observations and experience much more closely than what you report. I think you suffer from sample bias (failure to obtain representative cross section).
David

Rachel

April 5, 2008 at 10:41 pm

To all who think I don’t acknowledge that not all deaf children have successes with their CIs and AVT:

This is why I created Cochlear Implant Online, to inform parents of deaf children with CIs how to raise their children successfully so that their children do not end up being one of those “failures.” I’ve provided a story written by my mother about her raising my sister and me (http://cochlearimplantonline.com/index2.php?story) to acknowledge parents that it takes a lot of hard work and dedication to raise their deaf children with CIs. I’ve also provided a page about Auditory-Verbal that explains how to raise deaf children with CIs with the AVT approach successfully.

Rachel

April 5, 2008 at 10:46 pm

Wondering,

My mother just provided a list of research. I will try to add research information in my future blogs. Even though I don’t cite research often on my blog, I’m speaking from my personal experiences.

Barb DiGi

April 5, 2008 at 10:53 pm

Rachel,

DBC is barely one year old as we just started to grow. DBC’s intention is to share crucial information about the importance of bilingual approach because not all CI children benefit from AVT. Your mentality believes that adding ASL does not make a difference and this is the problem. Well, I’ve got flash news for you, IT DOES! I am fluent in both ASL and English and I tell you that it does like you tells us that you as a CI wearer that it does work. I do take your word for it but why couldnt you take mine for it? This is an example that a two way street is not functioning. Just keep in mind what works for you may not always work for them.

There are parents who have developed ASL fluently as long as there is service in their location that provides tremendous support. The problem today is that there is a lack of ASL therapy services but that will change someday since awareness is highly raised thanks to DBC. Choosing ASL is not a personal choice but a language right for Deaf babies.

Barb DiGi

April 5, 2008 at 10:56 pm

Drats, there’s no edit button and I am geting tired..correction

I am fluent in both ASL and English and I tell you that it does like you ARE TELLING us that you as a CI wearer that it does work.

mom2boys'

April 5, 2008 at 10:58 pm

Shel,
Please tell us more specifically about the children you teach who received AVT as infants and toddlers and graduated from a program as such. I find that many quote a lot of info about how it just doesn’t work, but they are not speaking of the same children and some now adults that Rachel and others are discussing. We’re not on the same page. Rachel is speaking about Auditory-Verbal Therapy under the guidance of a certified AV therapist, high parental involvement, mainstreamed since preschool, appropriately trained CI users/hearing aid users, etc.

Barb Digi,

The research that Melissa provided is flawed since there numerous research documents that outnumber Melissa’s proving that obtaining a visual language does have benefits.

Ok how does the fact that you state that you have more documents than Melissa make her research flawed. That’s like my son saying I have more candy than you so I’m better?? It doesn’t equate.

The research cited is valid. If it’s not, prove it.

If you have not visited an AV program or with an AV child/family, please do so. Then come back and let’s talk.

mom2boys'

April 5, 2008 at 10:59 pm

Rachel,

Thanks for your blogs.

Rachel

April 5, 2008 at 11:04 pm

“Your mentality believes that adding ASL does not make a difference and this is the problem. Well, I’ve got flash news for you, IT DOES! I am fluent in both ASL and English and I tell you that it does like you tells us that you as a CI wearer that it does work. I do take your word for it but why couldnt you take mine for it?”

Barb DiGi,

I will take your word for it, but I won’t accept the fact that it works for ALL deaf people like you said that AVT doesn’t work for all deaf people. I’ve met deaf people who were raised with both ASL and Oral/AVT approach, and their speech is unintelligible due to their heavy reliance on ASL and/or have been unable to be mainstreamed in school.

Barb DiGi

April 5, 2008 at 11:13 pm

I have already proved it in my blog and in DBC blog. Go ahead and click on the links in the right column under resources that focuses on ASL and bilingual research.

Not only that there are many researchers justifying that having ASL as a first language is in the best interest for Deaf babies but the research quality is at presence as well. What Melissa has provided is not sufficient and biased because three out of six research documents came from the same person, Geers. Also you can see that 7 out of 37 apparently did not show success so it leaves me to question whatever happens to them. I bet that if ASL was used along with AVT, the number will be a lot higher to make it more 100 percent guaranteed. What’s wrong with adding ASL? We all know that bilingual approach allows children to develop better cognitive skills.

Please just do me a favor, go and read the links.

Barb DiGi

April 5, 2008 at 11:16 pm

Ok, Rachel, then would you support the idea of having both approaches, AVT and ASL, for all Deaf babies/children? I am all for it.

There is actually a research showing that ASL facilitates speech. See http://clerccenter.gallaudet.edu/products/perspectives/nov-dec97/asl.html

Rachel

April 5, 2008 at 11:18 pm

mom2boys’ -

I really appreciate your wonderful advocacy on others’ and my blog. Please keep it up!

Barb DiGi

April 5, 2008 at 11:30 pm

Oh one more thing that I find it very interesting that the very same researcher, Geers said in the URL that I just provided about how ASL facilitates speech:

Children with a solid language base can be taught aspects of spoken English more easily than children without a language base. This may be partly why deaf children of deaf parents often demonstrate a significant linguistic advantage in spoken English over deaf children of hearing parents (Geers & Schick, 1988).

However, it is not new for us Deafies to read that. I happen to fit in this description since I have a Deaf family and that I’d acquired ASL as my first language and my speech is still intelligible. Since there are more hearing parents (but still not enough) are starting to sign with their Deaf babies, the future research will say that “Deaf children from signing families (instead of just Deaf families) will demonstrate a significant linguistic advantage in spoken English over deaf children of non-signing parents.”

I hope you will take a moment to read my blog about how ASL does not hinder language development.

http://deafprogressivism.blogspot.com/2008/03/my-blog-post-is-in-response-to.html

Thank you for the dialogue.

John

April 5, 2008 at 11:47 pm

Rachel, #23

Saying this:

“I’ve met deaf people who were raised with both ASL and Oral/AVT approach, and their speech is unintelligible due to their heavy reliance on ASL and/or have been unable to be mainstreamed in school.”

I guarantee you that 99% of those deaf people started off oral/AVT approach and then started ASL way too late after their parents realize their mistake. And I guarantee you that 99.9% of those parents are hearing that was mis-”informed” by the so called deaf experts.

I am a bilingual and bicultural Deaf person and Rachel, you do not know or understand the reality of being a bilingual or bicultural human being. Either learn ASL like I did when I was 19 years old and then I understood about visual language(ASL) or you’ll find yourself digging a hole so deep and become a fool of yourself.

Be humble and learn by listening to everyone’s experience.

John

Elizabeth

April 5, 2008 at 11:51 pm

RE: Comment #27: For deaf children of Deaf parents, yes, because their parents sign fluently in ASL. What about hearing parents? Their acquisition of signed English, let alone ASL, will be far poorer. And hearing people make up the vast majority of parents of deaf children. Their children will have an incomplete, poor-quality model of manual language.

Also, ASL is a valid, vibrant language, but it is NOT the language of the country in which we live. Good skills in reading/writing English will help someone who uses ASL bridge that gap a little bit, but, at the end of the day, aural/oral English is the dominant mode of discourse in our society. It may not be fair, but it’s life, and I think we have to give children the best chance possible.

Finally, could we all please have an end to statements like “Are you willing to state that you believe XYZ?” Throwing around such ultimatums is not constructive to this dialogue, and it’s just plain not very nice. Though I cannot speak for Rachel, I think the purpose of this website is to provide information about one method of deaf education, to show how it has worked for Rachel and others raised with AVT, and to provide research and resources in support of that method, while respecting the right of every PARENT (not any organization or cultural group) to make choices for THEIR child.

As Voltaire said, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Let’s just keep it kind.

Rachel

April 5, 2008 at 11:55 pm

John,

I’m happy for you that you enjoy being bilingual by using ASL and English. If deaf people who use English and ASL feel they’re having a successful life, I respect their decision and feelings.

Can’t you please accept the fact that I’m happy to be bilingual by using English and French? If I’m happy with my life even though I don’t use ASL, can’t you please respect that?

John

April 6, 2008 at 12:20 am

Rachel,
You know that we are talking about being bilingual between a Deaf person and a hearing person, Visual and Verbal.

And these Deaf people are happy with their lives too but why you continue to tell us the in this Deaf Reality blogsphere that you are more “perfect” than us and you also seem to enjoy doing your sadistic attitude message to prove that you “think” you are better.

If you are not “happy” with your life, don’t let it out to the Deaf community or culture or on this blog.

I have nothing against CI, oral, etc but why do you continue to degrade ASL as a language?…which you have no concept at all about ASL.

Can you please respect ASL? And leave us alone?

John

Jean Boutcher

April 6, 2008 at 1:22 am

Elizabeth says in #29:

As Voltaire said, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

Voltaire did not say that. He was misquoted. It was used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre in “The Friends of Voltaire” (1906) TO DESCRIBE Voltaire’s attitude.
Some people misunderstand Tallentyre’s statement.

Jean Boutcher

Tony Nicholas

April 6, 2008 at 3:46 am

Rachel,

Can I just say summat. No one is, neither am I, saying that you should not have had yr implant. Or that the way you were raised wasn’t a success. It clearly was, and for you it worked.

The fact, that your blog motivated people to actually respond with comments, is a good thing. Cos, if anything, I wish Deafies and deafies would be more forthwith in debating issues on a blog. The way hearies do.

But I must clarify summat. You are interpreting comments as a personal attack on you, when it’s not. I, for one, calling foul, over your use of a feedback comment as an exmaple of open mindedness, to shore up your own position.

I’m as bullheaded as they come, but I don’t misrepresent someone’s comments. Mis-read maybe, misinterpret, maybe. But misrepresent. No. That’s wrong.

Tony Nicholas

April 6, 2008 at 3:56 am

Elizabeth,

It may well be that Rachel is blogging to provided a certain perspective, and to provide some information about a specific issue.

The problem is in HOW it is done. This post for exmaple, is a rather lame attempt, at using somebody’s feedback to illustrate an example of how a Deaf person is being open minded.

I have already pointed out one issue, that renders Rachel’s claims rather hollow.

I don’t care what the reality is. It doesn’t excuse some of the crap that is used to justify a viewpoint. And few postings Rachel [and she certainly isn't the only one] has done, are questionable.

To be fair, I wouldn’t accept the same crap from Deaf people either. And I’ve seen my share there.

But to reiterate the point ocne again, how is a post that contians words like: “So I am a dying breed of Deaf people.” illustrate openmindedness?

If anything, this post is an example of a power base, that relies on its esteem via the belittlement of someone else. THAT, I don’t accept. And THAT, is what Rachel [and many oralies} failt o see!

Karen Mayes

April 6, 2008 at 7:16 am

Hmmm… I have been reading the comments…

Hmmm… to support Rachel, she has not said anything negative about ASL. What I appreciate her is her willingness to listen and again she has said several times in the past postings, she started this blog as one of the resources to educate the public about CIs.

Hmmm… to support some commenters, ASL DOES help give both hearing and deaf babies a good headstart.

Hmmm… NOT all deaf babies are visual. Some are aural, depending on the degree of hearing loss. It is a matter of time and training to become more visual or more aural. Would be nice to have a balance. That is why I like http://aslci.blogspot.com/ (the ASL-Cochlear Implant Community blog.)

As Jean Boutcher points out in several of her comments all over the DeafRead in the past, America is VERY monolingual which is a disadvantage for the majority of us…hearing and deaf. So it is great that Rachel has two languages (English and French) and it is great that some of us have two languages (English and ASL.) So the more exposure to more cultures/languages, the more we appreciate each other, etc. We don’t need to limit children only to one language. The world is rich with cultures.

Again… the success of either deaf or/and hearing child depends on the involvement of parents.

Rachel, like deaf people, hearing people do have some speech problems. There are many factors such as background, education, parental involvement, etc. that bely either success or failure of BOTH CI- and nonCI- children.

I am just speaking out my opinion… right or wrong? Nope… just my opinion, nothing more.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 7:48 am

John,
Oral/AVT is not an approach. Oral is an approach. AVT is an approach.

Cherylfrom MA

April 6, 2008 at 7:57 am

agreed with John, comment #31—respect ASL and leave US alone…we the Deaf are human….Melissa & Rachel, get it?????? WE ALL ARE HUMAN….PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!! end of discussion

Karen Mayes

April 6, 2008 at 8:12 am

I see some of us are getting heated up. Remember, it is all opinions… we need to learn to agree to disagree.

Even evolution is a theory. Creation is a theory. So forth. What works for one does not always work for another. When the emotions pop up, things get distorted and negative comments start flying.

One person (who is becoming influential in DBC and I won’t name that person) mentioned to me long time ago that the languages were full of symbols, wide open to many interpretations.

All right, today is sunny…so have a good day.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 8:24 am

You will not get Rachel or me or others who share our views to agree with you that adding ASL to a deaf baby with a CI is the way to go. I do not agree. If you were right that deaf children are harmed by AVT, then I wouldn’t know the several hundred whom I’ve known over the years who are thriving. That doesn’t mean that I do not respect that you have a different point of view. I also believe that those raised with ASL in the deaf culture can lead very happy and successful lives. BUT, I have been involved in education of deaf children both personally and professionally for over 20 years now. I have lived it personally, meeting many children who have used all of the approaches, and I have written many articles for which I have researched the options. The children I’ve seen who have developed excellent English language skills and clear speech are the AV ones. We chose the AV approach early on for Rachel because of the many children we met in all the approaches while doing our research.

The papers I cited are only a few of what I have. So, you can cite your research, and I can cite mine. We can each state that the other’s is flawed. I believe as strongly in AV as you do in ASL that the AVT approach, which, by definition, does not include sign, is the way to go for deaf children whose parents are willing to make the necessary commitment to the approach. I have seen a 95+% rate with this. I sincerely doubt that the kids you see in the deaf schools have been raised with the AVT approach the way that mine were. There are way too many therapists out there claiming to be AV who are not.

Open-minded deaf person is correct. Times are changing, and they’re changing rapidly because of the CI. What was true for those raised orally 20 years ago absolutely does not translate to how it is for deaf babies born today. Deaf schools are closing, and more and more children are being mainstreamed from the start without ASL. This is a fact. You can fight it, but you can’t turn back the tide.

You ask Rachel to respect you. Nowhere did she or I say that we don’t respect you or that we don’t believe that you and others who make the choices that you do can’t lead productive lives. What you will have to accept, though, is that we feel as strongly about AV as you do about your DBC. It seems as if you will sling all sorts of accusations as long as we continue to disagree with you. We are not doing the same, though. Being respectful means agreeing to disagree and to debate respectfully, not slinging accusations because others don’t agree with you.

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 8:49 am

Tony, I posted Open-Minded Deaf Person’s comment because I wanted to share a deaf person’s unusual viewpoint. How many people who are deaf and were raised with ASL have a viewpoint like his on DeafRead? I’m assuming none. If I’m wrong, please share their blog. So, why is it bad to read his perspective? It’s good to hear all kinds of perspective views. The only perspective I’ve seen from the deaf ASL community is that ASL is extremely important and/or is not fond of CIs.

His saying “So I am a dying breed of Deaf people.” is just his personal feelings about the deaf community. He’s not attacking anyone.

Cherylfrom MA

April 6, 2008 at 8:54 am

To open-minded Deaf person,

“It’s waste of energy, money and time for people to go to Deaf Bilingual Coalition Convention to HARASS AGB people” Where did u get that info?? we harrassed them???? not very true…you need to fix it & correct it….DBC in California was sucessed–peaceful rally…and we all aren’t wasting our energy–no way….we will not GIVE UP as you predicted…Thanks

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 9:05 am

Karen,

As always, I appreciate your comments. You’re absolutely right that PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT is the KEY to success. Because I see that your children are doing well with the bi-bi approach, I respect you.

It’s very true that people who hear normally do have speech issues. I have a good friend at my college who hears normally and has speech issues.

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 9:10 am

“Hmmm… NOT all deaf babies are visual. Some are aural, depending on the degree of hearing loss. It is a matter of time and training to become more visual or more aural. ”

This is very true. My sister is definitely one of those who’s not visual. When she was younger, she always preferred to listen to someone reading a story than reading on her own. Plus, she cannot read lips at all. My mother tried to teach her to read lips so that she could have that advantage when her CI is off, and it doesn’t work. Every child has their own unique learning styles. That’s why we can’t say that one method works for all people. One of the neatest things about deafness is that we have many different methods to choose from to fit our lifestyle the best.

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 9:20 am

Mom, well said.

John,

Please state where I said in my blog entries that I’m more “perfect” than you and I think that I’m better, except for the bus story which I understand that the statements that I made were disrespectful to the deaf community, and I do intend not to post an entry like that one again in the future.

Is it really fair for me not to be able to talk about my being happy and confident as a deaf person who uses a CI and why I’m thankful to my parents while you can talk about your passions in the deaf culture and why you enjoy being bilingual by using ASL and English?

a deafie

April 6, 2008 at 9:39 am

Do you have research that proves that some deaf babies are not visual? I would like to see it as I wonder how it is done especially with very young babies to determine if they are visual or aural.

How much does it cost to go in to have AVT therapy? Why is AVT so dead set against using ASL? How can ASL hurt AVT therapy? Then the parents and professionals tell the deaf child not to use ASL which leads the child to feel that ASL is a forbidden language to use and that ASL is only for deaf children who cannot talk. In turn, it hurts the deaf community because the deaf child and professionals/parents are dead set against using ASL and when the deaf child grows up, they are tempted to learn ASL but are constrained by the deep set belief that their parents put on them and may be afraid to learn ASL in fears that they have literally failed AVT.

This is why DBC wants to work with AVT to let parents know that ASL is an accessible language, its nothing to be afraid of, ASL will not destroy speech/AVT tools, it is a supplement in communication, feelings, moods and other things that a deaf child can utilize. I have met some deaf children who use ASL and have excellent speech skills and can talk on the phone and they never used AVT therapy. It also aids in social skills and cognitive thinking and expressive skills. Too many deaf children who were raised in NO-ASL environment tend to have poor expressive skills and critical thinking skills. ASL does and can provide them with those skills.

Rachel and Melissa, we are asking you to listen to us and see where we are trying to say. Let’s debate and listen and share our pros/cons instead of being so one-sided on this issue.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 9:39 am

An example I thought of after sending my last post -

In my county’s public school system, for years there was only a TC program for deaf children in one of the mainstream schools. Then, 4 1/2 years ago, the HI department decided to open an oral program at a different school. They started in 2003 with 5 students and one resource teacher. The kids were all mainstreamed most of the day. Today, there are 2 children left in that TC program, but they had to hire a second resource teacher for the school with the oral program because the numbers were mushrooming.

As I said, the tide is turning.

a deafie

April 6, 2008 at 9:45 am

One more thing — DBC and the deaf community has a dream that all deaf people can be united in one large group using ASL, have good speech and all those things. This is part of Deafhood. AG Bell organization and AVT are trying to fight against us in forbidding ASL, this needs to stop right now. Can we bridge together in combining all of these together, seeing that all of the tools will work together and we will be a more stronger community this way. Too many parents, professionals and deaf people are so frustrated with one another, it is like we are at a war and it needs to stop right there!

a deafie

April 6, 2008 at 9:52 am

TC programs do not work well because they sign and voice at the same time which can make it very confusing to the deaf children. There needs to be a bilingual model where ASL is used primiarly alone and then English not at the same time.

A bilingual model will work wonders for a deaf child because they can learn ASL with critical/thinking skills, expressive skills, social skills while at the same time learn to read/talk in English.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 10:21 am

Deafie,
My child has great critical thinking and expressive skills and way too many social skills and uses only spoken language.

Again, AV works just like it is. I don’t see a need for adding ASL. It’s not a war. Just don’t say that we need to change something that doesn’t need to be changed.

Again, visit an AV program. See it all for yourself before you try to change it.

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 10:25 am

a deafie,

“DBC and the deaf community has a dream that all deaf people can be united in one large group using ASL, have good speech and all those things. This is part of Deafhood. AG Bell organization and AVT are trying to fight against us in forbidding ASL, this needs to stop right now. Can we bridge together in combining all of these together, seeing that all of the tools will work together and we will be a more stronger community this way. ”

It would be nice for the deaf community to agree on one method, but, unfortunately, one method does not fit all. We should be fortunate to have different method options (ASL, Oral, AVT, Cued Speech, and SEE) to choose from that best fit our own lifestyle. Being part of deafhood does not necessarily mean that we all should know ASL. Everyone should be able to experience deafhood in their own terms. I would read deafutahhiker’s blog about his opinion on deafhood – http://deafutahhiker.vox.com/library/post/my-understanding-of-deafhood.html

Here’s a snippet from a comment that I left on his blog -

“I am certainly experiencing deafhood, but it’s just different. The difference is that I attend CI conventions and events, and I have deaf friends who use CIs. We all share our experiences about being deaf, but our experiences are just different from those who were raised without CIs and used ASL. ”

Choosing to be part of the ASL deaf community should be a personal choice, not a mandatory choice for all deaf people.

For your other questions, either my mom or I will back to you later. I have to head out.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 11:00 am

All I can say is that I am so blessed to have both ASL and good oral skills in my life. I grew up without ASL and I was miserable. Now, I have a healthy balance of both and I noticed that my English skills improved since becoming fluent in ASL.

All deaf children should be given this healthy balance of both. I dont know why many of you are so against ASL. It is puzzling.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 11:22 am

Barb…those children are just like the children you seem to support so much. What you dont understand that AVT programs have failed numerous deaf children and I see what happens to them. You can stick your head in the sand. Your choice.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 11:25 am

Shel…can you give us more data or stats on the AVT programs that have failed numerous deaf children. Are they truly AVT programs or are they oral programs? Head’s out of the sand. Just wanting to know.

All deaf children should be given language. That’s what parents of AV children are doing, Shel. I don’t know why many of you are so against giving a child language. It’s puzzling.

Barb DiGi

April 6, 2008 at 11:36 am

RE: Comment #27: For deaf children of Deaf parents, yes, because their parents sign fluently in ASL. What about hearing parents? Their acquisition of signed English, let alone ASL, will be far poorer. And hearing people make up the vast majority of parents of deaf children. Their children will have an incomplete, poor-quality model of manual language.

To respond to comment #29, please refer to #19. Also read about Sweden model that they use both AVT and natural sign language showing how CI kids are more successful having both languages rather than growing up using an oral approach only. There is a statistic for that but I need to look for it. For starters, you can read the book called “Educating Deaf Children Bilingually” by Mahshie.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 11:39 am

A deafie,

We have heard you, but, again, we disagree. We believe based on on our personal experiences, on those whom we have met over the years, and on the research that adding ASL in the early critical language learning years will hinder a deaf child’s acquisition of spoken language. Again, we are also talking about today, not 20 years ago. Your experiences with the technology of yesterday are not relevant today.

Your solution to all of us getting along is to have us agree that your way is the right way. That will not happen any more than Republicans or Democrats will suddenly decide to just say that the other is correct, and the whole country will suddenly agree on everything. How would you feel if I told you that we should all just agree that AVT is the way to go and that we can all just get along if you would agree with me?

This is a passionate issue for all of us, and, as the parent of two deaf children who would have been harmed by the so-called experts who told me I must be signing with Rachel when she was little, I feel very passionate to speak up against those who would have denied my girls the opportunities and successes that they have had. So, the debate will continue, but, as I have said, the tide is turning because there are more and more kids out there who are realizing success with CIs and AVT as my girls have. CI technology is continuing to improve with new implants and processors about every 5 years, and the age of implantation is continuing to drop. These kids do not need ASL. The older ones still do not need or desire ASL. I get that you feel threatened by that, but it is the reality that Open-Minded Deaf Person sees. You can fight, call it a “war,” etc, but the fact is that the number of deaf children learning ASL and entering the deaf culture is continuing to drop and will continue to do so. Why is this? – Because hearing parents meet kids like mine, have conversations with them, see firsthand their mastery of the English language and speech, learn about their academic successes, and that is what they want for their children. They want this because the vast majority of this world is a hearing and speaking world, which they want their kids to be a part of with ease, and they want their children to be able to take advantage of all that the hearing world has to offer.

Barb DiGi

April 6, 2008 at 11:41 am

To comment #52..

What??? Shel, I would suggest you read my comments more carefully. You obviously misunderstood my comments. I have never advocated Deaf children to grow up without ASL. Please don’t jump to conclusions about what I believe in. You said that you are so blessed to have both ASL and good oral skills in my life. We are on the same page, duh! Why do you think I am involved in DBC in the first place? Are you talking to the right person?

Tara

April 6, 2008 at 11:45 am

“I have not met any successful people who were raised with bi-bi approach except for the ones on DeafRead. The ones who I have met in person have very unintelligible speech.”

Rachel, do you equal success with intelligible speech? In that case, I must be very unsuccessful despite being in college and having strong language skills, academic skills, many friends, and a wonderful family. Oh wait, so are my Deaf friends with untelligible speech who are serving in the peace corps, who are studying for their Ph.D’s, who are traveling the world, who own their own businesses, and so on. Speech equals success? What kind of success, exactly?

Barb DiGi

April 6, 2008 at 11:46 am

Melissa, ASL does not hinder language development! You must be the same mom who left the comment in Deaf Chip since what you said is exactly what was said there. You are entitled to your belief but dont go around spreading this myth by using different names. I have already posted my blog about this topic how it is a myth since there are research documents proving that.

http://deafprogressivism.blogspot.com/2008/03/my-blog-post-is-in-response-to.html
“ASL does not hinder language development!”

Rox

April 6, 2008 at 12:00 pm

mom2boys, since many deaf people are originally placed into an oral program (I’m not referring specifically to AVT programs, I know they are different), where they are to learn a language that is not completely accessible, they often fail and are placed into a signing or ASL program. Why the English language is not completely accessible, I’ll try to explain… Even with hearing aids, cochlear implants (I know it’s improving so that it’s better now), or whatever assistive devices, some deaf people may miss those S or F sounds that are quieter. This leaves deaf children in a guessing game in trying to decipher a language that has evolved based on people with perfect hearing. Can you imagine your whole life only catching 80%, 60% or even less of the world around you? Many (not all) of these “oral failures” (for lack of a better term) grow up with low self-esteem and look back and naturally want to advocate for ASL and not for oral programs (including AVT) because we don’t want kids to go through the same thing we did.

Speaking of oral failures, I’ve met thousands of them. Literally, thousands. I’ve met ONE “ASL failure”. One.

ASL is a completely visual language that doesn’t rely on any ability to hear. That means your child will understand everything that is signed, and won’t have to play this guessing game. To turn your question around, I don’t know why so many of you are against giving a child a fully accessible language. It’s puzzling, indeed.

Now, you might assume that because your child has a CI and is in the AVT program, that he/she may understand everything that is said to him/her. This is a very dangerous assumption to make, and is the same assumption of many parents of oral (including AVT) failures. Even I passed the audiology tests with 100% accuracy without lipreading, but I threw out my hearing aids because I was tired of missing out.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 12:07 pm

Barb,

I’ve never seen DeafChip. I always post as Melissa. I don’t try to hide my identity. You are calling my opinion a myth. This is intolerance. I am not spreading a myth. My belief is that I am spreading the truth. I have seen firsthand evidence of this as well as research, some of which I have posted. You are voicing your opinion, not a fact.

Barb DiGi

April 6, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Melissa, it is good to know that you always post as Melissa. It is obvious that you and I both have seen things differently. I have seen that there are CI failures but success who are raised in bilingual environment and you have seen otherwise. I just hope that you are open minded to read my blog that ASL does not hinder language development which is true.

CANDY

April 6, 2008 at 12:51 pm

ASL does not ALWAYS hinder oral development. That much I can say. ASL is beneficial to some. ASL apparently does not work for some.

If anyone came up to me and say something like, your child will never speak clearly again if you encourage your child to use ASL, I will say this is BS, IF my child has residual hearing. But if my child is deaf, I’d probably agree. With a C.I. it is totally a whole different perspective. We can’t compare in this way.

But, we’re all forgetting something here. Obviously C.I. requires certain methods to be used in place in order for C.I. to be successful. What DBC is saying to these C.I. is that they should add ASL to AVT, and that is where there’s a conflict.

Valid research studies should show official statistics from the research that has been proven. I still don’t think there is any research out there that shows that AVT works well with ASL. AVT is obviously not the same method of “speech therapy” that most of us went through when we were in school. We never had speech therapy at home. AVT involves the parents to continue that therapy at home and from what I’ve seen so far, it is totally different.

When one is trying to convince parents that they should add ASL in addition to AVT, you’re asking the parents to reduce the valuable time of AVT (by adding ASL), thus running the risk of their child becoming C.I. failures.

I DO NOT think ASL impedes speech. And if it does, it is probably because there wasn’t enough hearing in the first place to sustain speech. That is just my opinion. I find it interesting that people think they can say things about something they’re not fully aware of all the itty bitty details. I know I have a lot more to learn about C.I. I’ve also met many profoundly deaf people who have some speech that is passable and that’s due to intensive speech training, but it does not work as well as it does for hoh. There’s so many variables to consider.

Usually when you get some technology or toy from a box and if you don’t follow the manufacturer’s direction, you’re screwed! Who are we to tell parents of C.I. child what to do?

If they want to learn ASL later on in life, good for them. If they don’t, leave them alone.

CANDY

April 6, 2008 at 12:55 pm

I think many deaf professionals or paraprofessionals who work in the school system (where there are mainstream program for deaf/hoh kids) are seeing a lot of CI failures and they think it is the norm. There’s a reason why they are seeing so many failures there because if there is a successful C.I. Child, that child would not have the need to be at these schools where the C.I. failures are in.

a deafie

April 6, 2008 at 1:03 pm

You see, we are willing to make this bridge to work with you all in accepting CI/AVT and then please work with us in accepting ASL. I don’t see this happening yet and yet this is causing a split among us.

ASL comes naturally to us Deaf people, we know how it is for us, we should be the ones who know what works for us as we are the ONES that go through it, not hearing people. Hearing people like parents, professionals and teachers claim that they know what to do with us deaf people and that their answers are much better than us. We are trying to say that ASL is the answer and that whatever you came up with CI/AVT, we are willing to take this. I don’t see this happening at all. All I hear is that CI is the best tool, AVT is the best tool and ASL is not needed here. You don’t think our voice is important, don’t you?? I don’t think so and this is rather unfortunate…….

John

April 6, 2008 at 1:09 pm

Hold on Folks,

One way to resolve this issue is to have all of us (both sides) to go to Congress and demand to have a “Language Commission Study for the Deaf”. A three or four year study by “non-bias” group (Not AGBell, AVT, Gallaudet, etc) to find out if “Oral only method” or “ASL only method” or English only method or Bilingual method – ASL/English(reading and writing) or ASL and oral combine method should be adopted for all Deaf babies and children in schools.

And also study why many deaf people have English language problems. Was it 1880 Milan’s demand to banned sign language logical or mistake in begin with?

The commission also should study about Alexander Graham Bell’s promotion to eliminate Deaf teachers, sign language, his effort to ban Deaf people to marry other Deaf people by asking Congress to past such law.

Should we have the Federal government to establish a Commission to resolve all this bias ideology about Deaf people’s right to a proper language.

John

a deafie

April 6, 2008 at 1:09 pm

Let’s get this kind of information out there:

ASL failures versus ASL successful children
AVT failures versus AVT successful children
CI failures versus CI successful children

And then we can see which methodology works the best for deaf children so that we can determine which education mode to use. We’ll be able to see the percentage and then we’ll see who is right and who is wrong.

Is this possible to have this kind of research?

California Grandma

April 6, 2008 at 1:25 pm

My gut feeling tells me that the kind of information we all need is going to be a long time coming, if ever. However, maybe we can begin to collect the information. But keep in mind “one size does not fit all” and never will. There are many educational theories that are used for all children depending on who is teaching it and the population to whom they are teaching. I don’t think we can ever ask that one method be the ultimate answer as there are too many variables. Since we are human beings and not just an object, we can never assure that only one variable has changed. We can however endeavor to learn, while trying our best to do no harm.

CANDY

April 6, 2008 at 1:29 pm

I know what the answer will be! Which methods will work for deaf children? There will never be ONE method that will work for all deaf/hoh kids. Too many variables involved! Why is there a need for one size fits all ideology?

California Grandma

April 6, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Thanks, Candy. Well said.

Wondering

April 6, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Melissa,

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of articles about the success of CIs. When I was born, I wasn’t qualified to get a CI since I had too much hearing. I have lost some hearing since and know that people are now getting CIs even with severe losses.

I use two aids, manage well one-on-one with people and in groups if there isn’t much background noise. I lip-read and use digital aids.

I’m curious to know if there’s any information about what I could expect if I decided to get a CI.

Here are some questions I have:

If I were to get a CI, would my speech become worse since the sounds I’d be hearing are electronic (for lack of a better word)?

How long would it take for me to “re-wire” my brain to be able to use a CI? I’m in my early 20s.

I have been able to use a telephone on limited occasions, but ever since VCO came out– I prefer that. I’m able to follow the words I hear as long as I know the topic. Does this mean that my brain is already wired to hear and a CI would be a good fit?

Sorry for the many questions, I’m just curious. I asked my parents why they never got a CI for me after my hearing became worse– they said I was doing just fine with aids. Also, they thought it would be better to wait until the “technology” had improved more.

Thanks,
Wondering

Older and Wiser

April 6, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Upon reading the article and the comments. I felt the need to respond. It appears that people here are referring to two different schools of thought when it comes to programs that attempt to teach deaf people how to speak and both of these schools involve the use of CIs as well. This was also information that I learned on this blog by asking questions and learning from other comments on previous articles.

The first school of thought is basically the “old school” concept where speechreading or lipreading was heavily emphasized in the oral process where we used vision and sense of touch along with a hearing aid to aid the residual hearing or a CI in the later stages of the “old school concept”. In speech training exercises, as an example, we would sit one on one with teachers and use our hands to feel the sound tones by placing them on the throats and noses of our teachers and then our own, while listening with our hearing aids.

This is where many of us know for a fact that there were many deaf people, that were unsuccessully able to pick up on this and thus lead to low English levels because too much time was given to these training efforts and not enough time on other importants aspects of schooling, such as English.

It is this “old school” concept that has led more deaf people, in my opinion, to the protest of many deaf people and they beleive ASL should have been utilized. In this “old school” approach, I went through this myself and was fortunately able to learn to speak and read lips quite well. However, I have also stated that I think that this process would have been easier for me if ASL were included, and I strongly support the use of ASL for this.

This school of thought has led to many more failures than there are successes and no research documentation on this particular matter will convince me otherwise.

The second school of thought, which I am referring to as AVT here, is an entirely different process here. What I have learned lately, is that this is basically the equivalency of teaching a hearing child to speak. It is strictly and solely based on listening skills and these AVT students learn to speak on their own based on listening skills. It is basically, as someone put it to me like this in a response, a hearing child sitting on a fathers knee and listens to his stories and picks up on that to learn to speak over time. They do not use any visual tools whatsoever, they do not even learn to speechread or lipread, its 100% auditory based. That being the case, I can now understand why ASL is not needed for the AVT process, as it would be the equivalency of requiring a hearing child to learn ASL as he or she learns to speak.

It important to emphasize that I am not supporting AVT, but nor am I against it, simply because I still do not have enough facts. I’m just stating it as how I understand AVT to work.

That does leave me with a HUGE remaining question, because I was brought up the “old school” way, I went to college with deaf people that were brought up the “old school” way, I still hang out with many deaf people that were brought up the “old school” way, of which nearly all of them now use ASL as they learned it later in life.

I have no personal experience whatsoever with anyone was that was brought up the “new school” way, simply because I am much older than they are and do not personally know anyone in this area so I cannot use my personal experience to base any facts to make a judgement on this. I will not rely on most of the research documentations either simply because they are not unbiased and most of the research I have seen are from people that I beleive have spent their entire careers pursuing a single aspect, such as Geers (whom has done most of the research that has been linked here) being in the oral education aspect probably her entire career and she isn’t going to simply suddenly flip the coin and say “ahh its ok to use ASL”.

While I can understand how AVT, as it is explained, does not need to utlize the use of ASL, my question is “does it actually work for the significant majority of the AVT students? One research document showed it working for more than 50%, which could be 50.1% for all I know and that number is not good enough for me. If it were working, for lets say 90% of these students, then I would have absolutely no qualms about ASL not being used. If it is 50.1%, then it is a big problem for me and a more detailed set of criteria for CI qualification needs to be set forth in order to increase this percentage.

Even if the AVT approach has a 90% success rate, I still advocate the use of ASL being utilized in baby signs before the AVT process is fully utilized on the student. I still think its important that these deaf AVT students are at least made aware of the deaf culture so that they can be exposed to it and be given an opportunity to bask themselves in it, because I know for myself, I wish i knew about it at an earlier age instead of finding out about it in college.

Lastly, I think the only way that this debate can be put to rest, is to have an unbiased research document that looks into this and such a team to put this together would be experts in ALL areas of deaf education and that includes both in oral, AVT, and ASL fields.

John

April 6, 2008 at 1:52 pm

Candy, you say…

“There will never be ONE method that will work for all deaf/hoh kids. Too many variables involved! Why is there a need for one size fits all ideology?”

Good question!

Back in 1880 Milan, Why didn’t they just adopt oral philosophy instead of eliminated sign language completely?

Was AGBell’s oral only method a “one size fits all ideology” in the begin with?

DBC never have said that we should have ONE method that will work for all deaf kids.

It is the babies’s need to have a communicative method at start to 18-24 months until they develop their vocal chord to start learning speech. And the only method is sign language which AGBell completely disregard this concept that does more harm than good.

Why do some people continue to blow this concept out of proportion.

Can some people have concerns for a baby and want to help?

John

Elizabeth

April 6, 2008 at 2:06 pm

Good questions, Wondering. I’ll provide what information I can, but Melissa has far more experience than I as a Cochlear Awareness Network Volunteer (I’m just a newbie with that program), so I hope she’ll chime in as well.

The first step would be to contact your closest Cochlear Implant Center for a candidacy evaluation to see if you qualify for a cochlear implant. (This link will help you find the nearest clinic: http://www.cochlearamericas.com/Support/38.asp). Without knowing your audiogram or your hearing history, I can’t tell you exactly how a CI might work for you, or give you specifics as to what you could expect. Your questions are great, though, so I’d suggest printing them out and bringing them with you to your appointment. An informed patient is an empowered patient, so make sure you get all of the information you need to make the best decision for you!

Anecdotal evidence from CI users who received their implants as adults tells me this:

1. Past hearing history matters! If an adult CI candidate has kept those listening and spoken language “pathways” open in their brain, as it sounds like you have, their results are usually better because the aural sense is not entirely foreign to their brain.

2. You mentioned that you rely on lipreading and have problems in background noise. A cochlear implant most likely will help with this. Many adult CI recipients find that their CI aids in comprehension of words that are hard to see on the lips (i.e. mat vs. pat vs. bat) and they find themselves relying on hearing rather than speechreading more and more as their experience with the implant grows. Cochlear implants also have specific programming options that allow you to “focus” the microphone to pick out the most important sounds in a noisy environment. For example, if you are in a crowded restaurant, you can switch to a program that ups the volume of noises coming from in front of you (i.e., the speaker across the table), but lowers the volume on all the ambient noise coming from around you.

3. Telephone use. You very well may be able to use the telephone again with greater success. Many CI users can, but again, individual results vary. How can you get the best use out of your cochlear implant? Get the necessary follow-up! Frequent mappings, sessions with an AVT, at-home computer programs for listening practice, wearing the implant all waking hours, etc. all of these things will increase your enjoyment and success with a cochlear implant.

4. The time it takes is very individual, based on various factors mentioned in #3.

5. Your speech would sound different to you, but just different, not worse. In fact, because the cochlear implant provides improved access to high frequency sounds HAs can miss (/s/, /f/, etc.), you might find that your speech improves and that you are able to recognize differences in prosody and intonation that may not have been accessible through your hearing aids.

Best of luck as you make this important decision. Questions like yours are what this site is here for, so ask away!

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Candy,
thanks for your post.

Deafie,
I accept ASL. I don’t believe there is a parent here who doesn’t accept ASL. The split you speak of is a split you are creating. There are not AVT families segregating themselves. We accept deafness, and it just so happens that deafness is diverse. We have chosen to take a different path, and it works for us.

The last time I checked I gave birth to my deaf child. My child is being raised in a hearing family. I am the ONE who knows him. I am the ONE who raises him. I am the ONE who provides him with what he needs. I am the ONE who loves him unconditionally. I am the ONE who wants what’s best for him. I am the ONE. You are not. So you can tell that the mama bears get defensive when you insinuate that we are harming our children. We are not claiming anything. I do know that when my child was diagnosed with hearing loss that we looked at ALL aspects of deafness. We chose a way for a child, and give it 100%. It works for him.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Barb..I apologize. I was referring to Melissa. I got the names all mixed up.

Melissa, I have worked with deaf children from Deaf families and hearing families who sign. Those children usually perform better academically than those who come from non-signing families because ASL utilizes their conginitive process thoughts early on. To say that ASL hinders oral skills is a myth and yes, u are spreading it, Melissa with your reliance on research that support the oral-only approach. I have so many deaf friends who grew up using ASL as their first language and who also have pretty good oral skills. Their writing skills are far superior than mine because they had full and complete access to language during their critical years of language development.

Also, like someone else state, AVT doesnt guarantee 100% success with all children due to the spoken language not being fully accessible to all deaf children. It is still putting these children at risk for language deprivation. I dont know why u continue to listen to those hearing experts who dont know what it is like to be deaf and what it is like to be constantly be in an extremely restrictive environment.

The question is..would hearing children be put in an environment where there are risks of them not being able to pick up language? I think not! Yet, u support that for deaf children.

I have seen what happens to those when AVT failed them. No, they are not the “failures”…it is not the children’s responsibility to determine whether a approach fails or succeeds for them. It is the responsililty of the parents and the educators. When the program fails these children, the professionals and parents are held accountable, not the children. By calling the children the “failures” show lack of responsibility on the parents and professional’s part.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 2:29 pm

Mom2boys,

My mom said the same thing about my deaf brother and I as you did. That she knows us, that she knows what’s best for us and all that. She put us in an oral-only environment in the educational setting. After 20 years, she admitted she was wrong and really didnt know what our needs were. Our needs were the need for ASL for full and complete access to information and language which we were denied growing up.

Everyone calling me the “oral success” and my brother the “oral failure”. Do u know what kind of damage that does to children when people label them like that? Never ever call children “failures” just because a system failed them. They have feelings too.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 2:31 pm

Shel,
I’m not clear about something. Do you work with deaf children with deaf parents and deaf children with hearing parents who sign OR do you work with deaf children who were AV? It’s unclear. Are these former AV children or oral children? These are two different categories.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Hi,
Please remember that my child has been aided( and now uses both a hearing aid and cochlear implant) since a young age and received one on one Auditory Verbal Therapy for 4 years. So, I will say that what you speak of is a bit different from my experience with my own child. I think one of the major points Melissa and Rachel are making with this site and blog is that AV today is vastly different from the Oral programs of the past.

….and I am not calling children failures????

CANDY

April 6, 2008 at 2:45 pm

Shel, look at the comment by “older and wiser” she does make a good point. Do read her comment.

Elizabeth

April 6, 2008 at 3:10 pm

Wondering: Sorry, I forgot one thing! You also talked about “waiting for technology to improve.” The vast majority of CI upgrades are to the programming software and the external processor. The internal part rarely changes. Most of the manufacturers have “trade-in” programs so their users can upgrade whenever new products come out. Looking into what the various manufacturers’ plans are should be a factor in choosing an implant brand if you do indeed decide to go that route. I will say that the longer you wait, no matter how good the new technology is, it’s may be less useful to you because more time has elapsed without hearing.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 3:18 pm

Older and Wiser -
Your post is very perceptive. There is an old school and new school. AVT for kids today is not at all what the oral approach was years ago. My girls are totally deaf without their CIs, but with them they not only hear across the frequencies at an average of 20 – 25 decibels, but they are also able to discriminate all the speech sounds. Thus, they learned language naturally through their hearing and communication orally through their hearing. This is very different from what went on years ago. We immersed Rachel and Jessica in spoken language, and they were able to hear it and learn it as normal hearing children do. Learning oral language visually, on the other hand, is a totally different story. I have known oral deaf people who were raised this way, and I can tell you that they struggle in ways that my girls never do. CI children not only hear and comprehend speech well, but also they develop clear speech and natural voice quality, which is clear evidence of how well they are hearing because they reproduce what they hear, not what they see.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 3:20 pm

Wondering,

Elizabeth did a good job of answering your questions. Adults who had residual hearing and so benefitted from hearing aids and continued to use them to communicate orally are often among the better CI users because the auditory pathways to their brain have not atrophied. In addition to Elizabeth’s suggestions, I’d add to visit http://www.cihear.com/ . It also includes a link to a listserv of adult CI users, who would be a great group to answer your questions based on their own experiences.

Cherylfrom MA

April 6, 2008 at 3:24 pm

#71 Older and Wiser and #72 John,

Very well said!! Thanks!!

(Deaf–I raised in a hearing family, grew up oral, SEE/TC, PSE then last, learned ASL…ASL fits me…my answer is ASL first–not last)

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 3:26 pm

Another point – Rachel is almost 21, and she was among the first 200 children in the U.S. to receive a CI in 1989. At age 2 1/2, she was also one of the youngest at the time because the first 200 included children ages 2 through 17. Thus, there simply aren’t that many implanted as babies or toddlers who have hit the older grades yet. Therefore, these AVT failures that you cite either weren’t in legitimate AV programs or likely were not implanted as babies or toddlers. Rachel was the first child in New England to get an implant, and when we moved to Atlanta, she was the first child her AV center had ever seen with an implant. Now, 85% – 90% of the children at the center have CIs. As I said, things are changing.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 4:21 pm

John,

OK, you’re now weirding me out a bit. It seems as if you are saying that the DBC has a political agenda: to take away a parent’s right to choose a language for their child unless it is ASL.

Since stats do show that about 97% of all deaf babies are born to hearing parents, and you say that all parents must provide ASL as the primary language to the deaf child…..then I would say that 97% of those hearing parents are not proficient in ASL and some would never learn ASL. So then what? How are you going to implement this?

Part of the reason we chose AVT for our son is because everyone in his family, church, and community is hearing and use English. It’s what we know. It’s how we feel we can best provide him language. I also have an 18 month hearing son who has never seen sign. He is now developing spoken language naturally just like his 5 year old deaf brother did. You believe that ASL is the natural language of the deaf. I believe that whatever language a family uses with the child is his or her natural language. You have to remember that we didn’t just give our son hearing aids and say, “oh, you can hear now, you go get’em!” Just as if we were teaching our son to sign, we have taught him to listen and speak. I believe wholeheartedly that you have the right to advocate for DBC. I believe wholeheartedly that I have the right to advocate for AVT. You are not wrong to do so, and neither am I! The problem lies when DBC tries to tell parents what we have to do. That, as history shows us, doesn’t fly.

“It is the babies’s need to have a communicative method at start to 18-24 months until they develop their vocal chord to start learning speech. And the only method is sign language which AGBell completely disregard this concept that does more harm than good.”

Just as a hearing child absorbs spoken language from the beginning. Deaf children when properly aided or using a cochlear implant begin to absorb the same spoken language from the beginning. Of course 2 month old babies can’t speak….spoken language is receptive before it is ever expressive. So bathing a child in spoken language is more than appropriate at these ages. You must remember as Melissa has said on more than one post that these children are learning language naturally. AVT is not speech therapy. I have not done more harm than good for my child by exposing him to spoken language from the start.

Again, I would suggest that those of you who haven’t visited an AV center or met with an AV family please do so. It’s not what you think.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Here’s another link to AV research

http://www.auditoryverbaltraining.com/AV%20Research%20Outcomes%20Final%20Preprint.pdf

It also lists several other relevant references at the end.

Barb DiGi

April 6, 2008 at 4:53 pm

Shel, apology accepted I know that there are so many comments that can get confused easily.

Here we go again when mom2boys quoted: ..”sign language which AGBell completely disregard this concept that does more harm than good.” This is one of the examples that parents who support AG Bell are consumed with this myth.

Here is the source from Jim Cummins at http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:g4xDflw1wfwJ:clerccenter.gallaudet.edu/ciec/documents/CumminsASL-Eng_000.pdf+cochlear+with+sign+language+success+sweden&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us&client=firefox-a
that completely counterattacks this myth.

Title: The Relationship between American Sign Language Proficiency and English Academic Development:

“The focus in this section has been on the relationship between ASL proficiency and English literacy; however, it is worth noting that Scandinavian research also suggests a positive relationship between use of sign language and speech production among children who have received cochlear implants (Preisler, Tvingstedt and Ahlström, 2002).

Thus, there is no empirical evidence to support the concern that the acquisition of ASL will inhibit English speech or literacy development among children with cochlear implants.”

Also get this:

“The importance of acquiring a strong first language applies equally to children who receive a cochlear implant. Current policy in Ontario discourages children who receive cochlear implants from acquiring ASL fluency in their early years. The assumption appears to be that acquisition of ASL will impede children’s acquisition of English
proficiency. This assumption relies on a Separate Underlying Proficiency model of bilingual proficiency (Figure 1) which has been totally discredited in the research literature on bilingualism and bilingual education. There is no evidence in the research literature to support this assumption. In fact, the little research that does address the issue suggests the opposite (Preisler et al. 2002).

If the policy is not evidence-based, then this fact should
be acknowledged to parents, and research should be initiated to provide an empirical basis for policies that profoundly affect the life chances of so many children.”

So it is all about presenting the facts that the parents have the right to know but whose job is to tell them? DBC is one of them and it is not the focus to tell parents what they have to do as mom2boys put at it by accusing John who said it which he never did by the way.

I can see how the words about what DBC is advocating for by telling parents what to do are twisted. All DBC wants to do is to educate, mind you, not to force parents to use ASL. I just rest my case for now.

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 5:01 pm

“DBC never have said that we should have ONE method that will work for all deaf kids.”

I have to giggle at this comment because it’s so obvious that DBC supports only three out of several methods, ASL, TC, and Bi Bi. When ASL is used with the Oral approach or AVT approach, it’s no longer oral nor AVT, but it becomes TC or Bi Bi. That’s what DBC’s supporting – TC, ASL, or Bi Bi. DBC is not giving people the right to choose which method to use.

If you want to create an awareness for ASL, be a spokesperson for those people who believe you. Please don’t go after my mother, mom2boys, and other parents who are raising their children beautifully and tell them what they’re doing to their kids is wrong. My mother and I will never go on other parents of deaf children’s blogs and tell them that they’re raising their children incorrectly. It’s none of our business. TODAY, not yesterday when the Milan conference occurred, AGBell will not go after other organizations and say “Change your policy!” I’m sure you’ve noticed that AGBell has been silent about DBC – They’re giving you the respect to let you advocate for whatever you want and give them credit for that please!

I could say that the research that DBC provided is flawed like Barb DiGi said that the research that my mother provided is flawed. Why? Because some come from Gallaudet University and RIT, universities that are proponents of ASL. Some other research is based on signs for hearing babies. We’re talking about deaf babies which is different. The reason why it’s better not to use ASL with deaf babies who have CIs is because their brains need to learn to hear naturally with their technology that provides hearing that is not as perfect as normal hearing in order to gain the best possible benefits from their CIs. I also came across this page that I have to laugh – http://www.deafbilingualcoalition.com/8.html This page provides a link to a wikipedia page which is an unreliable source, especially the fact that the wikipedia’s header clearly states that the article needs ADDITIONAL CITATION for VERIFICATION!!

John, can you please answer my questions that I asked before:

Please state where I said in my blog entries that I’m more “perfect” than you and I think that I’m better, except for the bus story which I understand that the statements that I made were disrespectful to the deaf community, and I do intend not to post an entry like that one again in the future.

Is it really fair for me not to be able to talk about my being happy and confident as a deaf person who uses a CI and why I’m thankful to my parents while you can talk about your passions in the deaf culture and why you enjoy being bilingual by using ASL and English?

Also, has AGBell ever come to any NAD or any ASL related conferences and rallied against ASL like DBC going to AGBell conferences to rally against the idea of the oral approach/AVT? (Don’t tell me that DBC supports the oral approach and AVT. Again, when ASL is added to oral and AVT, it’s no longer oral nor AVT. It’s TC or Bi BI approach.)

If you don’t like my not using ASL in my life, that’s your problem. Not mine. I really truly feel that some people are discriminating against me simply because I don’t know ASL and that needs to come to an end, just as deaf people who use ASL say they feel discriminated because they use ASL and/or don’t have perfect speech and/or hearing.

At the end of the day, let’s just enjoy the diversity of the deaf community. It would be nice for the entire deaf community to have a common language, but it’s not going to happen. Look at the United Nations conferences! All of their conferences are filled with people who don’t speak the same languages, and they have to reply on interpreters to communicate with each other.

The best way to build the bridge is we accept each other as a unique deaf person regardless of what methods we use. Karen Mayes is a perfect example of someone with whom I can build a bridge. While we both have different beliefs, we both respect each other and can have wonderful conversations.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 5:04 pm

Melissa,

Those children that I have worked with were implanted as babies and were in AVT programs. They are now in the elementary school ages so they are not from the old school method.They are at least 10 years younger than Rachel..if anyone is from the old school method, it would be Rachel. They have been in the same methods of AVT u mention and yet, they werent able to develop language through this approach and ended up with language delays. That is the goal of DBC..is to ensure that all children have full access to language, not partial.

Why do you accept putting any deaf children in that kind of risk?

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 5:11 pm

MISSION:

“The Deaf Bilingual Coalition, (DBC) promotes the basic human right of all deaf infants and young children to have access to language and cognitive development through American Sign Language (ASL).”

I am not twisting the website’s words.

Read this and tell me that you do not promote that ALL deaf children use ASL.

Shel,
How did Melissa put Rachel at risk?

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 5:12 pm

Shel,
How did Melissa put Jessica at risk?

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 5:16 pm

Barb,
I do respect your opinion. It’s your opinion. We do not share the same opinion. Again, no one here is bashing bi-bi for those who have chosen it for their children. The important thing is parental involvement. Don’t knock us who have chosen AV for their chidren. None of us would be continuing such a program if progress isn’t shown. We’re not putting our children in harm’s way. Can we agree to disagree? OR is the DBC going to go to Congress and try to force us to use ASL with our children?

Again, to all, I highly encourage you to visit an AV program and AV families. It’s not what you think.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 5:31 pm

Barb,
My husband and I have chosen my son’s primary language to be English. We believe it is the right of every child to use spoken communication. If he is properly aided or uses a cochlear implant, why would I begin by teaching him ASL? Why wouldn’t I choose to begin with English? We don’t need ASL to learn English. Literacy rates, which I know that you also value as important, are based on written language/reading. Therefore literate in English?

Again,
I respect your opinion.

California Grandma

April 6, 2008 at 5:32 pm

Excellent suggestion. I will do that very soon.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 5:35 pm

By using an approach that doesnt guarantee full access to language and information puts any children at risk. For deaf children, by placing them in programs where language is best accessed through hearing is putting them at risk because they are having to use their weakest sense, the ears.

I feel that all deaf children have the right to full access to language just like hearing children do and that is a visual language, in other words, ASL.

I am just tired of seeing so many children coming into my program at an older age so delayed in language because they didnt have full access to language. It shows that even though with CIs, these children didnt have full access to language just like their hearing counterparts did. Is that right to put deaf children in that position? If a hearing child was put in that position, an outcry would occurr, wouldnt it? For deaf children, it seems to be ok cuz we all want them to act like they are hearing, not deaf children, right?

My answer would be yes, Melissa took a risk by placing her children in an oral-only environment. I remember reading somewhere that one of them had language delays when she was younger. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 5:41 pm

Rachel,
Are you happy that your parents took a risk?

Rox

April 6, 2008 at 5:43 pm

“AGBell will not go after other organizations and say “Change your policy!” I’m sure you’ve noticed that AGBell has been silent about DBC – They’re giving you the respect to let you advocate for whatever you want and give them credit for that please!”

Didn’t AGBell write a letter to Pepsi blasting them for using ASL in their commercial recently?

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 5:43 pm

Shel,
To say that I risked my children’s well being is insulting. Rachel’s and Jessica’s success and accomplishments speak to my not only not putting them at risk but also are evidence of how the approach that I took for them benefitted them so greatly.

I cannot speak about the children you know. I can not know if they were in legitimate AV programs or if they had parents who did the necessary follow-through at home. What I can speak about are the many children who have gone through and continue to go through my AV center. They are all succeeding as my girls have. Far from putting their children at risk, what their parents are doing for them is benefitting them and will stand them in good stead for the rest of their lives.

Rae's Mom

April 6, 2008 at 5:46 pm

How can we expect to agree on such a subject when we don’t even agree on normal parenting ideas? Do you spank your child? Or time out? How about the rewards system? Should they be vegetarians or can they eat meat? Super healthy food or take out once in a while? No tv and video games? Most parents do not always agree with how we raise our children. There are no laws saying love and logic, for example, should be THE way.

I personally enjoy the insight that Rachel provides in her blog. It is very rare that I get to hear so much from someone who grew up with a CI. I have spoken with adults who have gotten CIs later in life. Some of them had hearing and lost it, some had minimal hearing with hearing aids and chose to have the surgery. Although I am sure there are many who are not happy with the result, these people have been. However, there experiences are not the same as someone implanted at a young age.

In my opinion, ANY parent preparing to have ANY surgery for their child should know the pros and cons of the surgery and what is required to make it successful in the end. Those who go into this without the proper information will be disappointed. The professionals are as much to blame as the parent if they have not made it clear what it takes to make the CI successful before the surgery. It is in no way a fix all. There are people that will never be able to use the device for various reasons. And it takes work, therapy, parent and school involvement to make it successful. I am afraid that people often do not acknowledge this at the beginning. There are, also, people who choose not to have the surgery.

I think both sides should realize it is only up to the parent. What I find so sad and sometimes very annoying is how ugly people seem to be towards the parents and the children with CIs. Honestly, that is your opinion and none of your business. I think ASL is a beautiful fascinating language. I would love to be fluent in ASL, unfortunately that proves difficult for me. At the time we were required to wait two years, using hearing aids, which did not work at all for her, before we could have her implanted. My daughter was provided with teachers from the School for the Deaf from 6 months until three when the local school system takes over. We chose to have total communication at the time. My daughter was implanted shortly after and eventually, SHE showed less interest in the sign we taught her than in the sounds she was hearing. It wasn’t a perfect transition and if I had my choice I probably would have had her implanted earlier. But we had communication at the time and we still do. She is a happy child. She LOVES school. No one can tell me I’m wrong, I’m living it. My daughter now has a choice, when she is older she can continue with the speech we have given her or she can continue to learn the ASL that was her first language. As long as my daughter is happy in the end, I will be as well.

Rachel is happy the way she is, she does not wish to experience what you keep pushing at her. Let her experience life on her own terms and you on yours. She is trying to provide information for parents on her website. If you do not agree, I suggest you take it with a grain of salt, as I do the flame posts that I have found on the net, both before and after my daughter’s surgery.

Rox

April 6, 2008 at 5:48 pm

Shel, you are correct that “oral failures” is a horrible term to use. It’s really hard to know what other label there is that accurately explains what one is talking about. Does anybody have a better label?

shel

April 6, 2008 at 5:48 pm

Hey..dont take it personal. It is a fact that deaf children’s ears are their weakest sense and spoken language is processed auditoritally so yes, that is a risk.

Those parents have put their children in AVT programs. How many times do I have to say it? If you dont believe me, you dont have to but that wont hide the fact that there are still numerous children being deprived of language and how do we stop that? By ignoring it? No…that’s why I support the DBC.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 5:50 pm

Rox,

I prefer to say that the approach failed the children. I still call the deaf childen.. I would never ever put the word “failure” next to their names.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 5:53 pm

I’m glad you support DBC. I support your decision. I support AVT. Do you support mine?

shel

April 6, 2008 at 5:59 pm

I do not support strictly-only AVT…I would like ASL/AVT. To make it clear, I am not supporting ASL-only. The DBC supports the use of both which is why I support it. It is good for deaf children to have oral skills but I think they all are entiltled to the same rights as hearing children do when it comes to having full access to language.

I do not support only-ASL.

I do not support only-AVT.

I support the use of both for all deaf children.

Rox

April 6, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Rachel, I think you may have some misconceptions of what Total Communication really is. May I suggest that you do a bit of research, and it may be difficult, because even professionals confuse the term.

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 6:06 pm

My parents didn’t take the risk. They followed AVT’s guidelines correctly, and they were very involved parents by working very hard to help me succeed. There are several factors that allow me to hear and speak well, and to be who I am today. Here are the factors:

- Using AVT guidelines correctly.

- Having a good AVT therapist who has AVT certification.

- Spending at least an hour every day doing therapy work, which I thought was playtime with my mommy.

- Communicating with me as much as possible throughout the day. For example, when my mother cooked. She didn’t just stand and cook by herself and let me sit and play. She asked me to help her. When I helped her, she would cover mouth and say, “Rachel, go get carrots.”
“Rachel, what color is this apple?” Of course, she expected me to respond, and I did. I never realized until later in my life that she was doing this as part of therapy work. I thought it was just a mother-daughter moment.

- Taking me to audiology appointments at least once or twice a year to make sure that I have good maps. I’ve had times throughout my life when my parents noticed that I wasn’t hearing well. As soon as they noticed that I wasn’t hearing well, they took me to the audiologist who fixed my hearing. It’s very important to keep children’s maps up-to-date.

- Have a good audiologist. There are audiologists out there are who are not doing their best job, and I’ve gone through that. Thanks to my parents, they took me to NYU to the best audiologist when I had a not-so-good audiologist until we found a better one in Atlanta. I know a few parents who will drive as much as 1 or 2 hours just to go to the best audiologist, even though there are a few in their local areas.

- Sending me to mainstream schools that best fit me. For middle school, my parents sent me to a school that had a teacher of hearing impaired to help me with my slight language delay. Having a good teacher of the hearing impaired is a plus. My teacher of the hearing impaired helped me tremendously to improve my language delay and prepared me well for high school. Again, for high school, I went to a high school that also had an outstanding teacher of the hearing impaired who mentored me well in my English classes.

- Parents being there to help me whenever I requested. If I didn’t understand a particular homework assignment that I had, my parents were there to help me.

I’m very thankful for my parents for being very dedicated in my life. If one of these factors is faulty in a child’s life, then it’s going to create problems allowing the child to succeed.

John

April 6, 2008 at 6:08 pm

Rachel,

“John, can you please answer my questions that I asked before:”

“Please state where I said in my blog entries that I’m more “perfect” than you and I think that I’m better, except for the bus story which I understand that the statements that I made were disrespectful to the deaf community, and I do intend not to post an entry like that one again in the future.”

I had used quote marks on the word “perfect”. It was your attitude, the way you write and say things, the conclusion of your statements

“Is it really fair for me not to be able to talk about my being happy and confident as a deaf person who uses a CI and why I’m thankful to my parents while you can talk about your passions in the deaf culture and why you enjoy being bilingual by using ASL and English?”

I am happy for you to be happy, no problem there but it is the way you say it as if you are a 5 year old kid to another kid. You seem don’t understand how your immature statement reflects yourself.

“Also, has AGBell ever come to any NAD or any ASL related conferences and rallied against ASL like DBC going to AGBell conferences to rally against the idea of the oral approach/AVT? (Don’t tell me that DBC supports the oral approach and AVT. Again, when ASL is added to oral and AVT, it’s no longer oral nor AVT. It’s TC or Bi BI approach.)”

AGBell and 1880 Milan eliminated our sign language and forced oral only method upon deaf children in schools and became victims of the deprivation in cognitive language. The Deaf people just want their sign language back. AGBell can have their oral only methods but it is us, the victims that need to fight to get our dignity of our sign language back.
Rachel, don’t you have any feelings of how awful AGBell was to take away the deaf people’s sign language, AGBell is obviously an oppressor!

“If you don’t like my not using ASL in my life, that’s your problem. Not mine. I really truly feel that some people are discriminating against me simply because I don’t know ASL and that needs to come to an end, just as deaf people who use ASL say they feel discriminated because they use ASL and/or don’t have perfect speech and/or hearing.”

I have many deaf friends that don’t know ASL and have CI. I have nothing against it. The different between you and my oral friends is ATTITUDE. Simple as that!

“At the end of the day, let’s just enjoy the diversity of the deaf community. It would be nice for the entire deaf community to have a common language, but it’s not going to happen. Look at the United Nations conferences! All of their conferences are filled with people who don’t speak the same languages, and they have to reply on interpreters to communicate with each other.”

Yes, let’s do give respect to the diversity of the deaf community. The Deaf community wants their sign language back that AGBell stigmatized the society that ASL should not be used because a deaf child will not be able to have good speech which is not true.

“The best way to build the bridge is we accept each other as a unique deaf person regardless of what methods we use. Karen Mayes is a perfect example of someone with whom I can build a bridge. While we both have different beliefs, we both respect each other and can have wonderful conversations.”

Yes, I agree, we need to tear down that wall that AGBell/AVT and its associates created since 1880 and build a bridge to accept our needs of cognitive language.

Thank you,
John

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 6:15 pm

John,

“I had used quote marks on the word “perfect”. It was your attitude, the way you write and say things, the conclusion of your statements”

Please provide some quotes from my entries that show my attitude that you don’t like. I would like to learn.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 6:17 pm

John,

I agree with you that many of us have lived with the stigma that AGBell created years ago and it hurted many of us. Despite my oral success, I grew up feeling disconnected from everyone because my rights to have friends who were like me were taken away cuz the professionals felt that it was better for me to have hearing peers as role models to ensure that my speech skills are utilized. What they forgot was my socio-emotional needs as a deaf person.

I think there is just way too much focus on speech and hearing.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 6:17 pm

John,

Eyes wide open. No one here is trying to take away your language. Why are you trying to take away our children’s language and replace it with ASL? Eyes wide open. I mean replace our children’s primary language with ASL?

It seems to me that the wall is yours. Tear it down, John. AVT is not creating a wall. It’s a choice. It’s an option. English is cognitive language.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 6:24 pm

Don’t you think that citing something that occurred in 1880 as justification for your thoughts and actions 128 years later is stretching it? If you check A.G. Bell’s website today, you will see

AG Bell Joins Amicus Brief in Hospital-Interpreting Case
Recently, AG Bell joined several advocacy groups in filing an amicus brief in the U.S. Court of Appeals, Second Circuit, in the case of Loeffler v. Staten Island University Hospital. The case involved a plaintiff who is deaf who requested, but was denied, an interpreter during treatment at a hospital. AG Bell joined the National Disability Rights Center, National Council on Interpreting in Health Care, National Association of the Deaf and many other organizations to “emphasize…the ramifications of denying effective interpretation services to patients who require them.” The brief further argued that the hospital violated “long-established clinical and public health standards for proper patient care, placing the lives and well-being of patients who are deaf …at risk.”

and

EHDI Act of 2007
Originally enacted in 2000, the Early Hearing Detection and Intervention (EHDI) Act provides funding for early hearing detection and intervention programs nationwide. The U.S. Congress is currently considering reauthorization of this landmark legislation. On Thursday, March 13, the House Energy and Commerce Committee passed the EHDI Act of 2007 (H.R. 1198). It will now go on the entire House of Representatives to be voted on sometime in the first two weeks of April.

as well as an entire section on advocacy, much of which applies to all deaf and hard of hearing children.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 6:26 pm

Mom2boys…

ASL is a cognitive language too and it is 100% accessible to deaf children.

What do u have against with the use of both? Why is a language that is not fully accessible the only option for you?

shel

April 6, 2008 at 6:27 pm

Melissa,

Did u read the letter AGBell wrote to Pepsi and how degrading it was to ASL and the Deaf community? I believe that was in 2008.

Deaf Person

April 6, 2008 at 6:31 pm

Umm…what about these deaf children with CI that come from deaf families? I have spoken with 2 deaf mothers whose children with CI are speaking and hearing very well despite using ASL at home.

Any opinions?

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 6:33 pm

Deaf Person,

You brought up a very good question, and I actually got an e-mail from a deaf mother who has a deaf child asking me that question. Here’s my response to her:

I’m definitely supportive of deaf children of deaf parents using ASL as that’s your family’s primary language and mode of communication. Plus, those deaf children who have deaf parents have the advantage because they are learning sign language from parents who are already fluent in it, whereas parents who hear normally and have no background in sign language is an issue because to them, learning ASL is like learning a whole new language from scratch. Thus, those children would be at a greater disadvantage if their parents used ASL as the primary mode of communication because they’re not getting the full complete language from the start unlike those deaf children of deaf parents. If you have different thoughts from my thoughts, I would definitely be interested in hearing it as I enjoy hearing different perspectives.

John

April 6, 2008 at 6:40 pm

Melissa and Mom2Boys,

You both are naive about AGBell, read that they wrote to Pepsi just three months ago,

January 31, 2008
Ms. Julie Hamp Senior Vice President
PepsiCo Communications
700 Anderson Hill Road Purchase, NY 10577
Dear. Ms. Hamp,
On behalf of the Alexander Graham Bell Association for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing (AG Bell), we are writing in regards to the airing of your upcoming Super Bowl commercial highlighting deaf characters. Established in 1890, AG Bell is the only national organization dedicated to supporting children and adults who are deaf or hard of hearing who use spoken language and hearing technology to communicate in mainstream society.
Although we appreciate Pepsi’s efforts to encourage new promotional ideas from your rank-and-file employees and your willingness to celebrate diversity, we would be remiss if we did not call your attention to the fact that your advertisement offers a limited view of the deaf community. Since you have chosen the Super Bowl as the forum to launch this campaign, and because of Pepsi’s size and stature, we feel a responsibility to offer our perspective on this somewhat misleading stereotype presented in your advertisement.
We trust you understand that deaf and hard of hearing individuals are a diverse group and therefore do not fit into a single, distinct culture. Your advertisement perpetuates a common myth that all people who are deaf can only communicate using sign language and are, therefore, isolated from the rest of society. In fact, today’s hearing technology, coupled with early screening identification and intervention, has led to incredible advances in listening and spoken language skill development. Of the more than 30 million Americans who live with hearing loss, the majority use spoken language as their primary mode of communication.
We would also like to remind you that with the amount of money Pepsi will spend on just one 60 second spot to air during the Super Bowl, you could help an untold number of families obtain hearing aids and other professional services that are costly and in many cases not covered by medical insurance. We would be very willing to work with Pepsi to develop some creative ideas to promote other facets of the deaf community and to highlight positive role models who have met the challenges of this condition and thrived using spoken language. In addition, we invite and encourage your participation at our 2008 convention to be held in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, June 27-30; the largest gathering of families with deaf and hard of hearing children in the world.
Your continued involvement in this issue would go a long way to educate the public about this oftentimes invisible condition and promote appreciation for those individuals that go above and beyond to overcome the absence of something many of us take for granted – the miracle of sound.

John

April 6, 2008 at 7:02 pm

Mom2Boys said;

“John,

Eyes wide open. No one here is trying to take away your language. Why are you trying to take away our children’s language and replace it with ASL? Eyes wide open. I mean replace our children’s primary language with ASL?

It seems to me that the wall is yours. Tear it down, John. AVT is not creating a wall. It’s a choice. It’s an option. English is cognitive language.”

Mom2Boys, Never anywhere I have said that we should take away English and replace with ASL. My goal is only to focus on babies from start to 18-24 months to learn to communicate with parents while their vocal chord’s development is not ready to speak. And the only way to communicate is sign language. But sadly, many parents have been stigmatized by AGBell that sign language “should be avoid at all cost”.

Please stop trying to mislead readers of my intention.

John

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 7:04 pm

John,

“‘I had used quote marks on the word ‘perfect’. It was your attitude, the way you write and say things, the conclusion of your statements’

Please provide some quotes from my entries that show my attitude that you don’t like. I would like to learn.”

Still waiting… If you want my attitude to change, please provide me quotes from my previous blog entries that shows my attitude that you don’t like.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 7:13 pm

John,
Where do you get that a baby’s vocal cords are not ready to speak between 18 – 24 months of age? My son was speaking in sentences by 20 months of age, and hearing babies start babbling at less than a year of age.

John

April 6, 2008 at 7:19 pm

Melissa,

I said from start to 18-24 months. Some babies start 4 months old and some said earlier so I now it is better if I say from “start” to 18-24 months.

No where I have said between 18 and 24 months.

John

John

April 6, 2008 at 7:25 pm

Rachel,

After reading many of your blogs, it is just obvious that you assume to think that way.

I am not going to waste my time with you because I don’t think that you will ever realize about your attitude…like you just said………”Still Waiting… If you want my attitude to change, please provide me quotes from my previous blog entries that shows my attitude that you don’t like.”

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 7:30 pm

So, here’s a question about a specific example for those of you who advocate the Bi Bi approach. When my girls were little, I read to them a lot. In addition, I used experience books that I made for them with almost daily entries about events and concepts in their lives. When we would sit and talk about these story books or their experience books, I’d do it either with them sitting on my lap looking at the book and listening to me or with them by my side with their implanted ear next to me as they both only initially had one ear implanted. I consider this time spent with them to be a very important part of their auditory training time as it was one-on-one focused listening time with my working on language and vocabulary through books and their personal experiences. So, if you don’t advocate sign and speech at the same time but, rather, separately, then I would have needed to also do this separately with sign, but then that would have taken away time I spent doing this auditorally, which would have taken away from their auditory training time and, thus, hindered the development of their auditory pathways. As any parent knows, there are only so many hours in the day, and we filled our available hours with these types of activities, all of which contributed to my daughters having the language and hearing skills that they have today.

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 7:30 pm

John,

I would suggest you to read one of Jodi’s blog entries that explains well why I write the way I write – http://rallycapsdotnet.blogspot.com/2008/03/re-ci-controversial-why.html

“What if deaf individuals who have worked so hard in avt and in life in general are just proud to live their deaf experience with a ci and the ‘superiority aspect’ of being fluent in the English Language has nothing to do with it? What if they are advocating ‘Choice’ in the deaf experience by discussing the benefits of ci? If Rachel is here on deafread.com to interact in productive dialogue with individuals interested in her experience, is she an audist because she is willing to openly answer questions about her journey? Or is she an ‘audist’ because her views conflict with those of readers?

She responds to criticism, reads it, listens and reflects…she is not an audist.

Do you measure your level of success based on how others see you or as how you see yourself? Really consider the answer to that question and you will begin to see Rachel as a twenty year old woman who sees herself as successful. This is why she is not an audist, just a person who has achieved something desired after working so hard for so many years, and that she wants to share this experience with others. Audism carries a component of hatred, just like racism…do you really feel that Rachel hates you?”

I think you just don’t want to hear any stories about my being happy and confident so that your organization can grow!

John

April 6, 2008 at 7:35 pm

Rachel,

I never said that you are an audist.

Maybe you need to go to a workshop of some kind to learn how to express yourself.

Rachel, I think that you can be a great person but it is something that you have that needs to be improve about how you write or communicate.

John

shel

April 6, 2008 at 7:40 pm

Melissa,

I think you are confused with the BiBi method. This is for the educational setting at schools. I know of so many families who have had deaf people volunteer to come to their homes to read stories to their children using ASL while the parents maintain the responsibility for spoken language exposure. Never did I say that the parents must use both at home..just only when the children were unable to develop spoken language.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 7:44 pm

Shel,
And that helps the child communicate with the parent how? And, if we’re talking about schools, how does that apply to babies and toddlers?

California Grandma

April 6, 2008 at 7:53 pm

John, why do you feel you must make a personal attack on Rachel? “Maybe you need to go to a workshop of some kind to learn how to express yourself.” PLEASE!!!

I am well over 50 and continue to improve how I write and communicate. I endeavor to reach out and learn from others.

This beautiful, articulate, and generous person Rachel has given me such hope and inspiration. Keep up the good work Rachel, this world needs more young people like you willing to share and enlighten us.

John

April 6, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Cal Grandma

I am admire your inspiration for Rachel.

Let’s stop playing games.

We need to focus on the big picture, babies need communicative language from age 4 months to 18-24 months and AGBell doesn’t want that to happen.

Barb DiGi

April 6, 2008 at 8:05 pm

Rachel,

Here is your response to this quote: “DBC never have said that we should have ONE method that will work for all deaf kids.”

Rachel: “I have to giggle at this comment because it’s so obvious that DBC supports only three out of several methods, ASL, TC, and Bi Bi. When ASL is used with the Oral approach or AVT approach, it’s no longer oral nor AVT, but it becomes TC or Bi Bi. That’s what DBC’s supporting – TC, ASL, or Bi Bi. DBC is not giving people the right to choose which method to use.”

Hold it right there! DBC and many people like me do not support TC It is obvious that you don’t understand what TC is since it can be either a combination of signs and speech, manually coded English, and/or ASL. We are not supporting this philosophy at all because it makes learning a language confusing and that these methods consist artificial languages. For a Deaf child to go through a program that makes two languages distinct, one should experience spoken language if applicable and ASL separately, not at the same time. DBC has made it clear that it is against the concept of oral only approach and it has always advocated to add ASL to oral approach. Just hold your laughs because you are getting it all wrong.

Never once did I ever say that these parents did it wrong but provided proof that ASL helps language development. There are too many misconceptions that I feel I am in a position to clarify the misconception, instead, I have been pushed away and been ridiculed at. I have presented many research documents and many of them proof that there are benefits for a Deaf child with or without CI to acquire ASL. But you just continue to giggle because you found one of many research documents that includes WiKi. Wiki is an online source that includes what the Deaf community has shared as it was never intended to be one of the main research documents anyway, besides it doesn’t say anything about AVT so it is not even the focus of the topic here.

NAD welcomes the diversity of the Deaf community. They, including ASL Expo, even have a booth on CI and do you see one about ASL in AG Bell? Nope! Don’t you see that AG Bell shuns and bashes ASL by giving parents a wrong message You don’t simply tell people who support DBC to hush up because AG Bell hushed it up too long.

Anyway, the topic is not only about you but it is about remaining CI children who are not successful with AVT that they don’t have ASL to back them up.

Since you and I are on the same page wanting to build bridges by accepting each other, I asked you a question that you haven’t answered to me before:

Would you support both ASL AND AVT for Deaf babies?

I don’t have a problem with that, do you?

California Grandma

April 6, 2008 at 8:08 pm

John
What games?
This is not AGBell’s website. It is Rachel’s.

Melissa

April 6, 2008 at 8:10 pm

Barb,

No one can support AVT and ASL for deaf babies because, by definition, it wouldn’t then be AVT because one of the main principles of AVT is that language is taught through the auditory and not visual. You can ask if one would support the use of both spoken language and ASL, but sign cannot be added to AVT any more than the Bi Bi approach would be the Bi Bi approach without ASL.

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 8:12 pm

“Would you support both ASL AND AVT for Deaf babies?

I don’t have a problem with that, do you?”

As I’ve always said, I will not support ASL and AVT for deaf babies. Please respect that while I respect your opinion. I don’t mind your advocating for bi-bi approach, but please don’t ask people like me to agree with you.

Building bridges doesn’t mean agreeing on the same method. It means respecting each other.

Please don’t ask me this question again.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 8:13 pm

John,

I fully support ASL and AVT for Deaf babies. I dont know why the parents and Rachel have a hard time supporting that too.

Melissa,

I suggest that you visit BiBi programs for babies up to high school so you can gain a full understanding of where many of us are trying to explain. It is hard to understand via the Internet until you see it in action.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 8:16 pm

Rachel and Melissa,

By not supporting ASL to AVT programs, you are indirectly supporting putting numerous of deaf babies at risk for language delays due to spoken language not being fully accessible to them. I think AVT only is just playing Russian roulette with these children’s language development. You can deny it all you want but it is happening out there. Maybe you choose to be blind to it, perhaps?

We are supporting your AVT approach but yet, you are not supporting the ASL approach so how is that building bridges for our deaf children?

Barb DiGi

April 6, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Of course, it is your opinion and I respect that as well. I have already shared that Deaf babies who acquire ASL have more benefits in developing speech/auditory skills when they get to reach at an appropriate age when they can start using vocal chords. I have already shared in my recent blog how parents can learn ASL.

http://deafprogressivism.blogspot.com/2008/04/hearing-parents-can-learn-asl-how.html

I have tried to build bridges by meeting you halfway and instead you just brush me off. I just don’t understand why would you want to put Deaf babies at risk by exposing AVT only to them knowing that ASL would guarantee them to develop literacy skills. What’s wrong with having both Ok, I am outta here so thanks for letting me to participate in the forum. Just please continue to be open minded about bilingual approach.

shel

April 6, 2008 at 8:34 pm

Barb,

I feel just as the same as you too. As for that, I feel that nothing is being accomplished here.

Thanks and have a good evening,
Shelly

Barb DiGi

April 6, 2008 at 8:37 pm

Shel, thanks for providing your valid points as well. **shrugging my shoulders** about these die-hard pure AVT fans, lol. Ciao!

Shelley Potma

April 6, 2008 at 8:40 pm

I have stayed out of this debate, but can no longer stand by and say nothing.

#53: ” I don’t know why many of you are against giving a child language. It’s puzzling.”
1#110: “Eyes wide open. No one here is trying to take away your language. Why are you trying to take away our children’s language and replace it with ASL? Eyes wide open. I mean replace our children’s primary language with ASL?
It seems to me that the wall is yours. Tear it down, John. AVT is not creating a wall. It’s a choice. It’s an option. English is cognitive language.”

Those two comments show a serious lack of comprehension of, and respect toward ASL as an actual cognitive language. Do read the research materials that Barb DiGi suggested. Also, William Stokoe’s research in the 1960′s proved that ASL is a language since it has all linguistic components i.e. grammar, syntax, pragmatics (it even has phonology level and morphology level (both free and bound morphemes).

Research has shown that language occurs in the left brain. Guess what. Spoken English, Spanish, and all other spoken languages occur in the left brain. So does ASL! Actual languages are processed through the left side of the brain. Artifical modes of communications (ie. Sim-com, Total communication, SEE) are processed in the right side of brain, which is NOT the component of the brain used for language development. Look it up, all of you.

Why is it that hearing babies are given the extra benefits of signing from birth, and yet Deaf babies are denied that? See Amy Cohen-Efron’s The Greatest Irony vlog.

Language and cognition does NOT begin the moment a child speaks, nor does it begin the minute a child is implanted. It begins the minute the mother speaks or signs to the baby… right after birth. While one waits for implantation, and does not sign with the baby, one loses precious time in the language and cognitive process with that child… one that will end up in a race against time. The window of opportunity for language acquisition can close as early as 6 years of age. The DBC is advocating the use of ASL from birth, to stimulate the language acquisition process. Parents who are not fluent in ASL can still learn and use it, grow with the child AND expose the child to deaf adults with good ASL skills. My own mother did that when she found out I was Deaf at 6 months of age. FYI: I have never been through the oral nor the AVT method, and I THANK GOD FOR THAT. I would have been otherwise damaged linguistically, both in ASL and in English because ASL is usually used at the very last resort after the Oral or AVT methods fail.

#85: “…The problem lies when the DBC tries to tell parents what we have to do. That, as history shows us, doesn’t fly.” That is rich!!! AGBell has been telling parents what they have to do since the Milan Convention of 1880, and for 128 years parents have accepted it from them. This has resulted in the suffering of thousands and thousands of Deaf children. Yet when we,the Deaf, who go through life as Deaf people and are the best source of information and advice when it comes to all things Deaf, are told we are bullying you parents, and telling you what to do????? How’s that for irony?!?

Shel (A Deaf Canadian)

Jean Boutcher

April 6, 2008 at 9:13 pm

Deafie says in #66:

“ASL failures versus ASL successful children AVT failures versus AVT successful children CI failures versus CI successful children”

It varies from an individual to an individual. If learning disabilities were not detected quickly, the learning process would be hindered amongst children. I knew of a deaf fellow who did not make the grade in oral school due to his learning disability which had not been detected until he was eight of age. His mother had to learn Cued Speech, and, in turn, she taught CS to her him. Through Cued Speech did he make a smooth transition to the process of language acquisition. (Ironic as it may sound, his younger brother with perfectly normal hearing failed in regular school. It turned out that he also had a learning disability. His mother decided to apply the same approach. It did work. The two brothers went on to a university thereafter.)

Jean

John

April 6, 2008 at 9:30 pm

I have no more comments

Good night

John

Rachel

April 6, 2008 at 9:43 pm

Jean,

Your comment is very true. My sister, Jessica, has apraxia, a type of speech disorder. When she was first implanted, she was not making any progress in speech during the first few months as my parents expected. So, they took her to a specific therapist (I can’t remember the type of therapist, but I’ll ask my mother) to find out why my sister was not developing speech well even though she was responding to the sounds with her CI. So, the therapist gave her the diagnosis of apraxia and gave her treatments for her specific disorder and within months, her speech took off, and she’s now speaking very well!

You’re absolutely right that learning disabilities need to be detected quickly. That’s where the parental involvement plays the role. Yes, every individual is different, and we are fortunate to have many different methods to choose from that best fit our lifestyle.

“(Ironic as it may sound, his younger brother with perfectly normal hearing failed in regular school. It turned out that he also had a learning disability. His mother decided to apply the same approach. It did work. The two brothers went on to a university thereafter.)”

It’s really interesting how certainly methodologies that are meant for people who are deaf can also work for hearing people like some people say that ASL helps improve normal hearing people’s language.

That goes for AVT too. Even though my brother has normal hearing, my mother still provided my brother some AVT, and he consistently scores 99th percentile on the verbal section of standardized testing.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 9:55 pm

Hi Shel,
ASL is a language. I respect that.
I’ve read the research.
Didn’t wait for implantion. Found out about hearing loss. Properly aided the day after learning about his hearing loss. So he didn’t lose precious time.

“FYI: I have never been through the oral nor the AVT method, and I THANK GOD FOR THAT. I would have been otherwise damaged linguistically, both in ASL and in English because ASL is usually used at the very last resort after the Oral or AVT methods fail.”
NICE!

If you read John’s comment to which I was referring……”One way to resolve this issue is to have all of us (both sides) to go to Congress and demand to have a “Language Commission Study for the Deaf”. A three or four year study by “non-bias” group (Not AGBell, AVT, Gallaudet, etc) to find out if “Oral only method” or “ASL only method” or English only method or Bilingual method – ASL/English(reading and writing) or ASL and oral combine method should be adopted for all Deaf babies and children in schools.”

That he actually thinks that we should go to Congress and let them tell parents what they have to do. He is saying that it’s ASL or the highway?? Sounds a little domineering to me…and to many others.

“I think AVT only is just playing Russian roulette with these children’s language development.”

Come on….everyone look. This is what parents of AV families see a lot of…it’s truly sad. Melissa, how have you dealt with this for 21 years?

“We are supporting your AVT approach but yet, you are not supporting the ASL approach so how is that building bridges for our deaf children?”

Ok, what is it? You say you don’t support it. You now say you do?
I support decisions parents make for their children when they work hard and make the necessary sacrifices for their well being. I support your right to your opinion. I prefer the choice I made for my child. Nope..wasn’t playing Russian Roulette at the time either.

For those of you out there who truly care (just kidding), today my son was speaking with his aunt on the phone (she has a funny accent as he’s used to a southern drawl), and he told her all about my birthday party…cake, etc. She asked him what flavors of ice cream we had, etc. He told her about mint chocolate and chocolate. In other words, it was cool that he was able carry on a great conversation long distance with a funny sounding aunt using his cochlear implant. I think he asked her to repeat something once. Mind you that this was in our very loud kitchen with his baby brother in the background and his father doing the dishes. (only b/c it was my birthday) She is a very important part of our lives, and it’s truly great that he can develop this relationship via the phone as we don’t see her enough. He’s 5.

OK NO COMMENTS ABOUT HOW WE COULD USE OTHER METHODS OF COMMUNICATING WITH HER….just respect that this is cool.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 9:58 pm

Oops Shel,

I forgot. If you get the opportunity, visit an AV Center and check it out. It’s not what you think.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 9:59 pm

I meant the first Shel if you are not the same? American Shel? Canadian Shel?

Ann_C

April 6, 2008 at 10:26 pm

I’ve read this entire post with its comments, good golly 142 comments and counting. Ya know, Rachel came into DR with her own blog, with her own views which are about CI’s, AVT therapy, and her life as a young deaf person with a CI, NOT about ASL, Deaf culture, or DBC.

Yet here are some DR bloggers or commenters who are demanding that she change her “attitude” regarding ASL for deaf babies, Deaf culture, and so forth. Rachel has not gone to other DR bloggers’ sites and demanded that they change their “attitude” about CI’s, AVT therapy and all that jazz, now has she, folks??

And this demanding for PROOF, PROOF, and PROOF is getting out of hand and outright silly. Anybody worth his salt knows that many studies and/or surveys are not without bias, not without variables that can alter results, paid for by organizations with their own agendas, etc.
Any group or organization can interpret results of a study for their own ends as well. Get Congress to commission a study on language acquisition for deaf children and you’ve got the government telling parents how to raise their own children, deaf or otherwise. Anybody really want that??

Don’t get me wrong, I hold some different views from Rachel’s. At least she’s sticking her neck on the line to express what are her views, just as Mishka Zena or Barb Digi or Tom Willard or Paotie do several days a week. There’s more than one way to skin a polecat.

mom2boys'

April 6, 2008 at 10:56 pm

Ann,
Thanks. You are a breath of fresh air. I respect that you may not agree with all of what Rachel says. I wouldn’t expect anyone to do so.

The funny thing is that I spent my birthday blogging. Wow. It was actually a change of pace from my life with three boys, a husband, a male cat and dog. I think my husband thought it was a weird choice on my part, but for you moms out there, it was kind of relaxing.

CANDY

April 6, 2008 at 11:05 pm

I can’t just stay mum on this one thing anymore….many of you who support DBC are a product of TC just as I was! I noticed this Cheryl from MA saying that she grew up with other method and ended up using ASL and ASL fits for her. Most of us are a product of TC because that was what was offered to us in our generation. We are NOT a product of ASL!!!!! Most of us probably use ASL now or a combination of ASL/PSE maybe simcom and so on… Which brings up more questions which I will not get into now.

And from reading the rest of the comments and I actually read the last PDF file that Melissa posted in her comment. How many of you have read it all? What I read answered the question I had in my mind from someone who teaches at a mainstream school. This person was angry and told me so because she sees too many C.I. kids being implanted and they’re not seeing successes.

There is no question that if a parent decide they prefer C.I., the parent is going to have to follow the suggested plan to ensure their child is going to be successful.

Now, for DBC to advocate Bi Bi, that’s fine. But, I think DBC is going about it the wrong way. Why are you going after AGB? AGB is on the right track for parents who prefer their kids to have C.I. AGB is not for parents who prefers their kids to use ASL.

Forget about AGB’s pespi letter..in fact his letter is no better than other letters I’ve seen deaf write in regards to Cold Case show, etc. This is trivial.

DBC, if you advocate ASL, Your job should ideally ensure that the hospitals/ENT/ whatever…provides information about Bi Bi approach. Your job would then to make sure that these parents have what they need for their child if they choose Bi Bi approach.

There is no way you can mix these two.

There may be deaf families that incorporates ASL in addition to AVT and it may be possible for them because ASL is their language but for the majority of hearing parents, it is not.

I really think DBC is approaching it in the wrong way!

I respect both approaches and respect the parents that makes their decisions.

I however am concerned more about OTHER parents who have a false sense of thinking that once they get their child implanted, their child will just automatically pick up and be “normal”. There are too many kids being implanted after five years old and with no intense AVT at all or dedicated parental involvement. Many of these kids were already exposed to ASL or signs at their school since they were already part of the deaf/hoh programs. That is where many C.I. failures comes from. The term “C.I. Failures” tend to be used by mainstream deaf teachers because they tend to be frustrated when dumped with kids like that. I think it’s a terrible term but it is what it is. I believe C.I. failures are a result of lazy parents or parents who are misinformed. Perhaps DBC should rescue these kids.

I learned a lot by reading the materials that Melissa provided. And I suggest you all who disagree with Rachel, to read it as well. Read all the documentation over at DBC and I’m sure you will come away with a better understanding on this ever so controversial topic.

I think these two needs to be kept separately and we need to respect these two as two sepearate approach. The exception would be if a deaf family decides to implant their child, then I can see where AVT and ASL would be able to work.

dog food

April 7, 2008 at 2:27 am

Wow, i appreciate many of the comments spent back and forth here.

I do want to point out that referring to scientific data and stats may not always help any points here on this topic. This is a personal experience that is varied in so many beautiful ways.

John, I can actually feel the heat of your emotions in your words in many comments. I believe Rachel is being open minded and is doing well in this kitchen. I think theres an opportunity to work together here, so take advantage of it more than anything.

I really appreciate Open Minded’s comment. I appreciate DBC’s efforts and all the people behind Cochlear Implant Online.

In the end, it seems everyone’s efforts are all about being able to communicate. Its a beautiful thing worth working for.

Karen Mayes

April 7, 2008 at 5:41 am

Yup… dog food has a point… it all comes down to communicating… somehow. If cone does not agree, don’t try forcing down the throats to make them agree. It is all personal.

Candy has a point… there are several CI children who are not doing well… same as several non-CI children not doing well.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading the comments.

Karen Mayes

April 7, 2008 at 6:37 am

Same goes for some hearing children not doing well while other hearing people doing well.

No difference.

Deaf/Oral Linda

April 7, 2008 at 8:12 am

DBC, Barb Digi, Deaf/ASL/non-speak are still dicriminated Against AGBELL, CI, Non-ASL, Oral school, Hearing Parents, blah blah.

You all deaf/ASL/non-speak have to accept what hearing parents have a right to make a decision the best for deaf child/children. You all are continue controlling controlling controlling hearing parents and AGBELL. You all are still dividers, bullied, discriminated, JEALOUS, blah blah. Please SHUT UP and ACCEPT. AGBELL will never die !!!!!! You all can’t break the walls down. AGBELL is very strong company for many years. You hear me. *sigh*

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 9:42 am

You talk about breaking down walls and building bridges, but then you say it has to be only on your terms, that we accept that all deaf children learn ASL and that that is the best and only way to go. I’ve told you that I do not agree with that but that I respect the rights of others to hold varying beliefs. Most of all, I respect all parents who commit themselves 100% to their children regardless of the approach that they choose. You, on the other hand, tell me and others who hold my belief in the pure AV approach that we are wrong and that there can be no bridges unless we say you are right. What this says to me is that you are the ones making that wall even higher. There can be no bridges without respect and acceptance.

Barb DiGi

April 7, 2008 at 10:27 am

Linda, I am only against the idea of not allowing Deaf children to be exposed to ASL and nothing else. Please don’t twist the words about what you said about me.

Your comments made me laugh because there is no way that we all ever got to control hearing parents like we really have the power? Come on, get real! AG Bell is a rich, dominant organization who actually have their claws on the parents more than a socio-linguistic minority group of the Deaf. Too often, the parents are not being fully informed of the options and that is my beef. By the way, I can see that you have severe grammatical errors in your comments and you are oral? Hmmm..no more comments.

Candy, you don’t even know half of the facts about DBC. There is a lot of strategic planning going on that focus on reaching out to parents. You need to realize that DBC is at an infancy stage and a lot of growth and re-framing have been happening. DBC is having a first annual educational conference this year welcoming prominent speakers who will share more details about bilingual education. It will empower the Deaf community to be more involved in their local community to give parents of Deaf babies more support. DBC has been working hard to raise the awareness of the needs of Deaf babies. It doesn’t make sense to advocate hearing babies to sign and to deny Deaf babies not to sign. Research shows that hearing babies being exposed to signs have more benefits and it does apply to Deaf babies as research shows.

Melissa, I never said for you to accept all Deaf children learn ASL and that is the best and only way to go. All I am saying is to expose both ASL and auditory/verbal training to all Deaf children (if applicable). I am a product of both and I consider myself successful. It is a myth that ASL hinders language development but you continue to cling on this concept which is the problem that a bridge cannot be built.

Cherylfrom MA

April 7, 2008 at 10:33 am

#147 Candy,

My english wasn’t great when i was using oral/SEE/TC….then when i learned ASL–my english was much improved….so oral/SEE/TC are out!!!my parents once believed AGB but that was in 1967 when i became deaf at age 2 by spinal meningitis….they didn’t know what to do with me…now my entire hearing family are signing pretty good & they realized & they see ASL is a MUST..i thanked tham for believing in ASL—not AGB!!!!!

Cherylfrom MA

April 7, 2008 at 10:38 am

#54 them*

Barb DiGi

April 7, 2008 at 10:40 am

Candy, you said that most of us support DBC are a product of TC just as I was!

That may be true since ASL was an oppressed language that many MCE methods were used back in the 70′s/80′s. The TC philosophy has shown unsatisfactory rate of success since the methods used are not considered a language. Many research documents shifted to the use of Bi-Bi philosophy in the classroom showing more promising results. This is what DBC is advocating for and many of the members were former orals, former TC users, etc. who discovered ASL wished that they had acquired ASL during critical language learning period (ages 0-3) that would help them increase better literacy skills.

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 10:59 am

Barb,

Will you admit and accept that there are many children who thrive with the AV approach who never learn or need ASL? I certainly have two living in my own house and could introduce you to many many more.

California Grandma

April 7, 2008 at 11:09 am

Barb
Ok, let’s take out “the only way to go”. What exactly are you saying if you don’t believe ALL Deaf children should learn ASL? Once you add ASL to AVT® it is no longer AVT. So where do you support AVT®?

Rachel

April 7, 2008 at 11:15 am

“All I am saying is to expose both ASL and auditory/verbal training to all Deaf children (if applicable).”

Even though my parents do not expose ASL to my sister and me in our household, that doesn’t mean that we can’t shut our eyes and not see ASL whenever we incidentally come across it in public. I went to a middle school where there was a large number of deaf students using ASL, and my parents never told me not to look at them.

Is that what you’re trying to say? You just don’t want parents to get angry at their deaf children with CIs for seeing ASL in any public places that they could come across by accident? I understand that there are some parents who will immediately pull their children away from anyone who uses ASL whenever they come across them by accident. However, my parents were never like that when I was growing up.

ChrisH

April 7, 2008 at 11:53 am

Deaf/Oral Linda

“DBC, Barb Digi, Deaf/ASL/non-speak are still dicriminated Against AGBELL, school, Hearing Parents, blah blah.”

Your information is wrong.

ASL gifts for CI, Non-ASL, Oral, their families and interpreters. CI and Oral are always Deaf.

Karen Mayes

April 7, 2008 at 12:21 pm

Hmmmm…

I would NOT say that “DBC, Barb Digi, [etc]… discriminated against AGBell…” The way I see it, Barb was discussing her beliefs which are backed up by the resources. Same goes for Rachel standing by her beliefs which are backed up by the resources. Actually, BOTH Barb and Rachel are right… OR wrong, depending on where we are coming from. I am not saying who is right or wrong ;o)

Yes, I did notice a few heated statements (regarding the word “respect”.)

So let’s find the common ground. We all want the best for the deaf children.

Then make a compromise. ASL AND (NOT vs) AVT. How can we make them work together like tango? It seems AGBell and DBC are at odds with each other, sooo… what is the solution?

Open-minded Deaf person

April 7, 2008 at 12:48 pm

Hi commentators,

I am not surprised that there are 150 comments.

As a former anti-CI whiner like some current commentators above who advocate for bi-lingual education approach, I have often seen or associate with many failures of CIers at the school but I have never associated with successful CIers.

Bi-lingual educational philosophy was established at about almost same time when CI was first announced. Even Gallaudet President Now occured right before the new innovations. Indeed I opposed CI for babies or children as I felt being offended for being ASL Deaf. “I am fine, why fix me? I feel that I am no good in eyes of people who advocate for CI for babies or children.” That statement was how I often told my reason for opposing CI for babies or children. I was hoping for the failure of CIers but I swallowed so hard after learning that more prelingual CIers are able to function expressively and receptively like hearing people. Not only that, their academic intelligence level is par with hearing peers. Last of all, they are so happy which matters me the most. Once CI children master their spoken language, they are automatically enrolled at hearing classes without any interpreter but they use portable soundfield system.

I remember very well that there was a newspaper article from CI expert at John Hopkins University that it costs cheaper to have CI for babies in long term. I disagreed until I learned about more successes of prelingual CIers than ever. Now I agree with the article that it is cheaper to invest on prelingual CIers than prelingual non-CIers. Why? No need interpreter….as they are able to function at hearing school well.

I am an educated ASL Deaf person but I don’t live independently because I lack my skills in spoken language that I have to depend on interpreters so often. For your info, successful prelingual deaf CIers can be my interpreters if they want to. Hence, interpreters are my leeches in life in aural/oral settings such as doctor visits, workshops and many more.

Therefore prelingual deaf CIers are more marketable than prelingual ASL deaf people like me since they have lot of choices than mine such as universities or career they want to go. They can be teachers of hearing students while I can’t because I need a leech which cost insubordinately high. The job opportunities are greater for prelingual deaf CIers than prelingual Deaf users.

So hearing parents of deaf babies see me as hopeless citizen even though I have a college degree because I lack my spoken language. Therefore, almost all of them choose CI for their babies.

It is a sad fact that the number of deaf population at schools for the deaf have been drastically declining especially intelligent deaf students. I hate to see this reality as I cherished my time at deaf school. What should I do? I have to accept and move on.

Rachel’s blog really hit me so hard that educate me about the lives of successful prelingual CIers as I can see that she has nothing to hide about the dark side of CI even though she had to have another surgery to replace the deficit part. It is amazing that she accept to go through pain to fix her CI. It tells me that she cannot live without the breeze of sounds and discuss how beautiful the sounds are. I am living in a fish bowl watching how people enjoy the breeze of sounds such as noises from animals or music that I cannot understand.

For DBC, I challenge you. Will attendees be majority group of hearing parents who have prelingual Deaf ASL people, prelingual Deaf ASL of hearing parents and prelingual Deaf ASL deficit CIers of hearing parents? Do Deaf people of Deaf people have rights to tell deaf children of hearing parents how to raise their children where ASL is hardly accessible in their home environment? Why are you following AGB convention? It tells me that your organization is a tail of AGB so you have to follow where AGB convention. Therefore you are leech of AGB. Last of all, can you survive in the world without leech(interpeters)? I advise you not to follow AGB or you are fools. CI are here to stay forever and I hate to say that Deaf Culture is getting smaller and smaller.

Before I stop keying, I, an ASL Deaf educator of hearing parents, tell you that I love ASL Deaf people but you know that there are times that we, ASL Deaf people with lack of spoken language, are frustrated because we are Deaf…no..no..I mean…we have to depend on leeches(interpreters). I know some of you and I am not going to tell you who I am. I admit that I envy for better opportunity and technology for today deaf children that we have never had. So it is time to swallow so hard, move on and do something better things than hounding on AGB people.

Barb DiGi

April 7, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Melissa, all I know coming from research and Raychelle’s v/blogs is that 1/3 of CI children “fail” from AVT. Really, I am happy that the remaining number which seems to be more than a majority is successful. It is not my issue about this success group but about the remaining 1/3 who did not make it. If they all were exposed to ASL, I bet the numbers will show even more success in mastering English. These unfortunate 1/3 of AVT kids could have continued to succeed at least with written English.

California Grandma: I experienced AVT and ASL when growing up. There is no need to pick one over another.

Rachel: What I am trying to say since the beginning that there will be more benefits when Deaf babies acquire ASL as a first language and learn to listen and speak (if applicable) as they mature with vocal chords. when you said that there are some parents who will immediately pull their children away from anyone who uses ASL and this is an act of prejudice. Prejudice is taught and learned, not born with it. It makes me wonder what kind of message are they getting? It is my intention to break down the barriers that exposing AVT children to ASL is not going to “ruin” their speech or language development. I am really glad that your parents are not like that by “blocking you” from using ASL since it is your choice. You obviously feel comfortable with that and that you were granted to make a choice. But what I don’t quite understand is that your mother is being biased since she clearly supported a research statement that ASL hinders language development and that may have influenced her to raise you when thinking that way.

Rachel

April 7, 2008 at 1:02 pm

“But what I don’t quite understand is that your mother is being biased since she clearly supported a research statement that ASL hinders language development and that may have influenced her to raise you when thinking that way.”

She is saying that she believes that if the child LEARNS ASL while learning to hear and speak will hinder the language development. The reason is because if my parents and I took the time to learn ASL, it would take our time away from my learning to develop good auditory skills and speech skills. Every minute of the day was crucial for me to learn hearing and speech as my hearing was not as perfect as other normal hearing people, and she just simply didn’t want that to be taken away.

Cherylfrom MA

April 7, 2008 at 1:04 pm

well,open-minded Deaf person, then tell AGB people included you to leave DBC people alone…do your job and we do ours…but i support ASL/AVT for CI users we will not abandon them who is failing to hear & speak…period…thats why its our job to fight for our future Deaf children with CI so ASL needs to be provided

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Barb,

How can ASL be a deaf baby’s first language and spoken English their second language and, at the same time, have them master spoken English, and I’m talking about language and speech, to the same degree that AV children do? There are very few hearing people who are as fluent in a second language as they are in their native language. You will have to provide me with significant research studies out of institutions other than Gallaudet or RIT to convince me that, somehow, deaf children whose hearing is their weaker sense, can somehow fully master spoken English as a second language.

As I said, I consider mastery of spoken English to include language and speech, not just written language, because the fact remains that we are a hearing and speaking society. This is not prejudice but fact. I am very thankful that my girls developed very clear and natural speech because I strongly feel that it makes their lives in the hearing world easier. If they were relegated to written English, Jessica would not be attending the private school where she currently is thriving, and Rachel would not be the Features Editor of her college newspaper because, in order to do so, she needs to communicate orally both in person and on the phone with the rest of the newspaper staff.

As a hearing parent who did my research into the various approaches early on by meeting parents and children in person who were using the various approaches, I can tell you that even then, 20 years ago, there was no comparison. Now, with the CI, there are even more AV children like those I met 20 years ago. As I said before, hearing parents are going to meet kids like Rachel and Jessica, and, because they can hear these children and speak with them, the choice will be obvious. Your approach is going to be a very hard sell for any hearing parents who do their research by meeting kids in the various approaches.

Finally, you ask about the 1/3. Where is the research data showing that 1/3 of children who work with Certified A-V therapists following the actual A-V approach, ie not a Cert AVT working in a school for the deaf (I personally know one who fits that description) are not successful? My personal experience is around 5%, and those 5% are identified early and guided into other programs that are a better fit for them.

Barb DiGi

April 7, 2008 at 1:09 pm

To Open Minded Deaf person, it is hard for me to take your words seriously since you remain to be anonymous and has no credibility. Anyone can say that and pretend to be someone else. Unlike me, I don’t hide my identity and many people know who I am.

As for your questions addressing DBC, allow me to answer them. We are just forming and it is not even one year old. There are a lot of success stories when it comes to DBC rallies at places where it advocates AVT only. You would be surprised how many people including attendees of AG Bell seeing the flyers with research statements showing how ASL benefits Deaf babies. It is all about educating the public and the attendees and there is nothing wrong with that. The registration is free and OPEN to all parents. DBC has been working on developing more services to provide parents support to learn ASL. Please see my blog: http://deafprogressivism.blogspot.com/2008/04/hearing-parents-can-learn-asl-how.html

DBC is not in the business to tell hearing parents how to raise their children in ASL environment but to INFORM them about research facts of using ASL in their home.

Also, don’t think that DBC is against the idea for children to speak. It is ideal for Deaf children to have ASL, intelligible speech (if applicable and high writing skills. This AVT service is against ASL. It is not about for DBC to be against CI. Please don’t rush to judgment before you make such statements. Read more about DBC and talk with one of the members, can you? Show me how open minded you are.

It is funny how you call interpreters and DBC leeches. I am laughing so hard because it is so far-fetched! Hey, come one and let’s suck the blood out of you that will give you more health benefits!

ASL-AVT

April 7, 2008 at 1:17 pm

What??? (Gasp!) Barb, you said to Melissa “All I am saying is to expose both ASL and auditory/verbal training to all Deaf children (if applicable). I am a product of both and I consider myself successful.”

I always thought you were a product of ASL/ORAL, but I never knew until you told Melissa that you are a product of ASL/AVT. Since you make an emphasis that you are a ***successful*** AVT product, why not seize a golden opportunity to be implanted to hear people speak, laugh, cry, sing? “Two best worlds” is better than one world!

Barb DiGi

April 7, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Rachel, you know it is a funny thing because I am thinking the opposite. Since ASL is an accessible language for ALL Deaf babies, this should be used first because at that time babies are not ready to develop auditory skills and speech skills until 18 months or so. It is much more beneficial from birth to that time to expose ASL and by the time babies are ready to speak and listen, they will have a lot more chances to develop a better spoken language. See research statements here:

“Baby’s brains that are exposed to a second language and learn it, such as ASL, develop further than baby’s brains that are not exposed to a second language (Snoddon). Teaching babies ASL can also help develop the eyes sooner in young children. This is because ASL is a very visual language and taking in information causes you to use the right side of your brain. While other languages that are not as visual as ASL causes you to use the left side of your brain. Babies who learn ASL are actually using both sides of the brain which causes building of synapses (Snoddon).

Children who are taught sign language has demonstrated better spelling and larger vocabularies than children who did not learn sign language. They also have a tendency to show better speech and communication skills.

Baby’s brains that are exposed to a second language and learn it, such as ASL, develop further than baby’s brains that are not exposed to a second language (Snoddon). Teaching babies ASL can also help develop the eyes sooner in young children. This is because ASL is a very visual language and taking in information causes you to use the right side of your brain. While other languages that are not as visual as ASL causes you to use the left side of your brain. Babies who learn ASL are actually using both sides of the brain which causes building of synapses (Snoddon). Children who are taught sign language has demonstrated better spelling and larger vocabularies than children who did not learn sign language. They also have a tendency to show better speech and communication skills.

Anne Websdale, a spokesperson for the deaf and hard of hearing services, has suggested that not only does signing help with language development but it can also help improve parent baby bonding (Saccone, 2005). Children also find it fun to learn sign language because it uses movement and they may pay attention more. This causes the motor parts of the body to develop much sooner than the mouth. Sign language can also help improve IQ scores and advancement in scores on English parts of exams.

Learning how to sign is only an advantage for the child. It could NOT hurt their language development, it can only help. Not only can it help with language development but the child will also be bilingual at such a young age. Knowing ASL is also an advantage if the child were to come about a deaf child or adult. The child will be able to communicate with the child or adult and it can also be helpful in the child’s future as they continue to grow and choose a profession. The world is full of diverse individuals and knowing a second language can only benefit the child.”

There are many more research documents proving that so please feel free to read more about it.

Barb DiGi

April 7, 2008 at 1:36 pm

Ha, funny you ASL-AVT! CI at my age was not reliable and completely available. What’s more, I was able to hear well with my hearing aid on my left ear that I considered myself hearing the same as CI wearers do but I won’t be eligible to be a CI recipient anyway. Oh yes I can even hear laughs, cries, bird chirping and what-nots but it is not as important as having strong written English skills. I grew up in a public school without interpreters or leeches as Open Minded Deaf person put at it (*chuckling!*) but I also grew up using ASL as my first language and I can verify that ASL does not hinder language development.

You can read more about me at http://deafprogressivism.blogspot.com/2008/03/my-blog-post-is-in-response-to.html

mom2boys'

April 7, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Hey Barb,
You’re a member of DGB so is John. We’re listening. We’re talking to you. I believe that’s open minded enough. I can be open minded and not agree with you. I don’t think changing my son’s program is a prerequisite. Are you saying that only if AVT no longer exists and parents like myself stop using AVT will mean we’re open minded??

AVT will not add ASL to the program. The program works as it stands. In education, there is not one particular methodology. In educating the deaf, there is not one particular methodology. You’re 1/3 stat is unsubstantiated. That’s just not going to cut it here. So I will say this again. I support your decision to provide bi-bi approach to your child and to advocate for it. It doesn’t mean I will do this with my own child. That does not mean I’m “against” it. I support a parent’s right to teach their child English and French. It doesn’t mean I’m going to do this with my own child. The problem here, Barb, lies the fact that you and DBC will not make parents like me use ASL as my child’s primary language. It’s not going to happen. You’re not going to change AVT. It’s not going to happen. If I were a parent you knew personally, and my child was deprived in any way, I’d expect you to say something. He’s not. The others I know are not. There is no reason for you and DBC to try to dictate here on this blog what we should do with our children. Enough is enough. Don’t comeback and say….oh we’re (DBC) going to keep trying to build bridges with open-minded parents…..We have chosen a different path for our children and as many have pointed out it’s ok.

And now that you say you were raised AVT and ASL. Tell us about the AVT program you were in under the guidance of a certified AVT therapist. The goal of AVT is to provide spoken language as the primary language. So this met the needs of your family? I was assuming that being born into a deaf family would mean that of course you would want ASL to be your primary language? There has been a family with a hearing impaired mom and a hearing dad at our center. The mom wasn’t able to provide the needed language model, but she still wanted this program for her child. The grandmother and father provided the AVT training for the child. She of course spoke to her child and provided imput throughout the day. It worked great. She just needed help to get it all done. So please do explain, how you were provided this therapy?

Karen Mayes

April 7, 2008 at 1:50 pm

I have to say something…

As a deaf mother of two deaf children (son as a late-deafened child and daughter as a hard of hearing child), I have seen at how ASL really benefits my daughter who has excellent speaking skills (not perfect, but she can easily talk to neighbors and the neighbors easily understand her… something I lack.) And her first language is ASL even though she ENJOYS going to the speech therapy at ISD. She does not have a CI (she does not need it, since she has plenty of residential hearing.) My son… is a different story… his first language is English and he has near perfect speaking skills and his auditory skills are excellent. BUT… as he matures, he sees the need to rely more on visual aids (he uses CAN and he was really upset at being informed that his ASL interpreter was being let go.)

There are always some degrees of visual and aural skills in the deaf children… The deaf babies tend to be more visual, so their first tendency is to manipulate things visually. That I understand…That is why I feel exposing deaf babies to ASL or any kinds of visual cues is the main key to the development of cognitive skills. IF combined with AVT (how it works, I don’t know…), it could help develop auditory skills better… not hindering language development at all. Maybe the timing and application of AVT and ASL, etc. without overwhelming the deaf babies’ brains?

Also, there is more research that ASL does help improve the speaking skills (in older children… but… it is something to look into.)

Again, as we all know… there is a need for a lot of involvement in the deaf child’s life to ensure the success… CI or not. Let’s say the deaf child could benefit greatly from having BOTH visual and aural skills…ASL and AVT/oral?

Remember I am not a professional. Just my opinion. I am not taking any sides… all the sides have points and it is a matter of fitting the puzzles together…

shel

April 7, 2008 at 2:06 pm

Karen Mays,

I see the same as u do. I believe that by building the bridges and to prevent any children from falling through the cracks is to working together by providing AVT and ASL.

It doesnt do anyone any good by saying no to the ASL/AVT approach becuase it will just continue to divide everyone even further. I do not like to see that.

If u had asked me 15 years ago, I would have agreed with Rachel and Melissa on everything but as I learned ASL and became involved with the Deaf community, my views changed. I see the value in ASL. I wonder if they learned ASL, would their views change? Who knows?

Great posts, Barb!

Ann_C

April 7, 2008 at 2:26 pm

I keep reading something in this post that has been referred to often and is not being directly addressed here. I understand where Barb DiGi and Karen are coming from, one as an ASL Deaf adult of Deaf parents and the other as a Deaf mom to two HOH children who have developed auditory skills and use ASL as an additional language.

Keep in mind that 90 to 95% of deaf children are born to hearing parents. I’m one such example. There are three other siblings, all hearing, in my family. My parents had their hands full aplenty, raising four kids, dealing with my deafness and communication issues, in addition to another sister who had psychological problems and was a major handful to raise as well.

Do you think such hearing parents would have had the time to learn a new language(ASL)between speech clinic sessions, the merry-go-round of psychiatrist appointments, my dad’s job which entailed some traveling, and raising four kids? Sheesh, I’ve often wondered how they did it at all.

There is so much time in the day and today it is far more common for both parents to be working jobs in addition to raising children, deaf or hearing. I’m not saying here that CI’s and AVT are the easy way out, that indeed such a decision for a deaf child requires parental involvement and commitment in order for this process to be successful. I can also see how implementing ASL requires a time commitment on the part of hearing parents to learn and then teach their deaf child this language in the home. This is probably time the parents can’t even spare, that’s the dilemma. Not to mention that they also need to give time for other kids, if any, in the family.

Barb DiGi

April 7, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Hey back to you mom2boys: It is DBC not DGB by the way. There are a few things I need to have some points straightened out. We both are here discussing our points of views not DBC or me to dictate the blog as you have indicated. I am appreciative for us to have a dialogue and to me, it is what it takes to be open minded as long as we treat each other with respect. All I want is to have you to recognize that there are research facts showing the benefits of ASL as a first language acquisition rather than shunning this language out of Deaf children’s lives because of the fear that it will hurt or hinder Deaf child’s language development. I consider myself open minded here because I am not shunning anything as I strongly support all approaches but to see how one bashes or blames on ASL for hindering language development or reducing the success rate on AVT is where I need to jump in because I wanted to show that it is a myth.

AVT will not add ASL to the program is wrong to me but right to you. I am here presenting the facts why AVT should add ASL but you kept on denying that it will be beneficial. Flash news for you: The program DOES NOT ALWAYS work which is why we are concerned. We care much about Deaf babies and want the best for them.

I don’t have the research documents here with me about how 1/3 statistic results came in but I can tell you the source that I have learned came from Raychelle’s blog. Let’s say it is true, would you support bi-bi approach to begin with? I am not talking about your child or mine but about these kids who are not achieving under AVT program. It is like taking a gamble because there are always kids who don’t achieve under AVT and it is best for them to already have a strong language foundation, ASL, that is, to help them achieve building a bridge to English.

Again, let me emphasize that DBC is not going to tell parents how to raise their children but to inform them the facts and benefits about ASL because too often this has not been shared equally by doctors, audiologists, early interventionists, etc. Too many parents are clueless about the facts of raising their Deaf child(ren) bilingually. It is a matter of voicing and that parents have the right to know ALL choices.

You tone in the middle is not necessary. DBC will always build bridges with parents especially who have open minds since they are more receptive to the information that is presented. No where did DBC said about not building bridges with parents who support us advocating bi-bi (like you said) but they have decided to chose a different path as long as it works for their Deaf child(ren).

Well, I believe the term, AVT, wasn’t officially coined at that time when I was little but the practices were similar to today’s AVT that I have to practice listening the words without lipreading and without signing when being immersed in spoken language environment. I grew up with a Deaf family but with hearing grandparents so the goal had always been mastering spoken language and ASL just like my Deaf sister’s. We always play around with spoken English and ASL. We are able to sign songs in ASL when listening to the lyrics. We both won first place for best talent when signing songs in the state pageant for the Deaf. I am always grateful to have the best of both worlds and what is wrong with that?

Thank you, Karen, for adding your perspective.

Karen Mayes

April 7, 2008 at 2:42 pm

Ahhh… I am like you, Ann_C… I was born to a hearing family and attended Central Institute for the Deaf (nope, I don’t have any bad memories… in fact, I enjoyed CID and I was not happy to having to go mainstreaming. :o) ) Well, my hearing parents were very involved in my education.

So I do understand the need for CI by hearing families. I understand that there are many different approaches and that one size shoe DOES NOT FIT all… that I understand. However, we are seeing the rising numbers of successful ASL users and CI users so it would be nice seeing some kind of partnership there. But yes, we live in a hearing society so it is a challenge, with the closing of deaf schools, the increasing numbers of mainstreaming deaf children, etc.

I don’t know… but Ann_C, yup, there are factors for the families who feel they do not need ASL.

Barb DiGi

April 7, 2008 at 2:53 pm

To respond to Ann C’s concern about parents using ASL:

Parents don’t have to be fluent in ASL right away since there are many parenting tools for communication through the use of ASL. See my blog:
http://deafprogressivism.blogspot.com/2008/04/hearing-parents-can-learn-asl-how.html

Like Mark Drolz at http://www.deaf-culture-online.com/baby-sign-language.html said, ” No, you do not have to put in the 5-10 years it takes to become fluent in ASL–just 100 or so signs will be enough for your baby. Nonetheless, it’s best if those signs come from an actual language. ASL has so much more to offer than any system of made-up baby signs.

First of all, if your baby sign language program incorporates ASL, you’ll be on the same page as countless other parents and their babies. You’ll be able to sign with them and they’ll be able to sign with you. Second, this is a wonderful opportunity to expose your baby to another language and a culture. We all know that the younger you are, the easier it is for you to master more languages, musical instruments, and so on (there is indeed some truth to the old saying “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks”). This is an exciting, stimulating way to engage your baby’s mind. Would you rather do so with a made-up set of baby signs, or an actual language, ASL?”

The Signing Time series teaches more than 75 signs and exposes you to over a hundred is an example of one of the communication tools.

Karen Mayes

April 7, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Oh, let me tell you something… Barb DOES sing. She’d tune the car’s radio station, and then she’d find it, and then she’d sing the song… she has a good ear for the lyrics. That was when I lived in Rochester, NY.

Now she is engaged to a deaf musician… so music is very much part of her life ;o) So she is correct in stating that she grew up similar to the way CI children are growing up now.

CANDY

April 7, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Barb, you said: “It doesn’t make sense to advocate hearing babies to sign and to deny Deaf babies not to sign.” That’s true and I agree with it but what does it have to do with AVT? There are still many parents out there that have not implanted their child and are using the oral method – I can see where you might want to advocate towards these parents.

What you and I went through with speech therapy years ago is nothing like AVT at all. So, we shouldn’t be comparing that.

I agree that to expose ASL to babies is an excellent idea. But, parents who decide to implant their child should stick to practices that have been found to benefit C.I. to its fullest potential.

Are you insinuating that parents of C.I. Child should consider ASL in addition to AVT? Because if that is the case, it wouldn’t be AVT at all so…why bother to push this idea of incorporating ASL with AVT?

Karen Mayes

April 7, 2008 at 3:06 pm

Hmmm…

I know that ASL helps improve the aural skills… but for older students.

But are there any research that adding ASL to AVT have been shown some benefits to the babies from birth to 3 years old? If the links have been added, I am sorry, don’t you mind putting up the links again? I did go over http://aslci.blogspot.com/ and I did see that K.L. posted about it, but that is from her personal view. So are there any professional research?

John

April 7, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Thought maybe some would be interesting to read this;

MAC and IBM Computer – Same? – Different?

Deaf and Hearing people – Same? – Different?
This is my analogy about how Deaf and Hearing adults or children or babies are created differently just like a Mac or IBM. They, hearing and deaf people are the same in very way just like a Mac or IBM. But the only difference is the software program. The software disc that you put in the Mac or IBM computer got data information that the Mac or IBM understands what it written(embedded) in it and functions according how you communicate with the keyboard. The software disc could be Word processor program, accounting program, video game program, drawing program like Photoshop, etc.
Hearing and Deaf people are human bionic-computers. Before I go any further explaining more about what I will write on this post, you might ask this question, what is a bionic-computer?
Bionic-computer is a human being that its brain can compute to do things such as like calculating the coordination while walking or picking things up, etc. Your brain is always computing like a calculator doing the adding, subtracting, etc while controlling your balance, reaching for something, jumping or hopping over something, etc.
No one was born as a full functioning bionic-computer human being. Keep in mind that we all had to learn to crawl, walk, talk, sign, run, respond, think, etc since the day we were born. Our parents were the main educators, motivators, etc in the beginning of our lives. Then teachers, your peers, people, media, TV, etc became additional educators, motivators, etc. This process is the education of our bionic-computer body(mind) that goes on until the day we die.
One more thing that I want to say about the terminology of the two words;
Software and Hardware.
The computer that you are using right now while reading this post is call hardware.
The disc that you put in the computer contains data so you can watch movies or video game or Microsoft Word is call software.
The Human Bionic-Computer is the hardware of the human anatomy. This would include the brain, internal organs, and other human organ systems such as Cardiovascular, Endocrine, Immune, Muscular, nervous, Reproductive, Respiratory, Skeletal and Urinary systems.
Your bionic-computer has stored program properties and self- metaprogramming properties, with limits determinable and to be determined.
You might ask, what is metaprogramming??
Metaprogram is defined as a set of instructions, descriptions and means of control of sets of program.
How did we get the metaprogramming properties?
You got them since the day you were born, from your parents, teachers, etc. It is the software education that you have and it is stored in your brain.
Now, let’s go back a little about what I wrote above;
The bionic-computer has stored program properties and self- metaprogramming properties, with limits determinable and to be determined.
You might ask, what you mean by with limits determinable and to be determined.?It means that it depends on how you have been educated, how much data flow you have gotten or able to receive from your parents or teachers in early childhood, etc.
It could also means that it depends on if you are deaf or hearing. In this society now days, a deaf person will have a good chance to get into the phrase of with limits determinable and to be determined.
This is very, very important to keep this in mind as you read on in my post.
The title of this post is
MAC and IBM Computer – Same? – Different?
This is the same as if I had said,
Deaf and Hearing Babies – Same? – Different?
What is really the different between a Mac and IBM computer?
They both look alike, same hardware, functions the same. They both have low level, average level and high level performance.
Just like in the society, we have low level, average level and high level minded human beings. You might ask, why do we have three levels.?With the computers (Mac/IBM), it depends on the speed of calculating, the amount of ram memory and the software program.?With human being (bionic-computer), it depends on the early childhood of language foundation, how much you’ve learned the software program.
You might ask, what was our human software program?
Well, for a hearing baby, it was the data flow of informations that enter through the ears.
And for the deaf baby, it was the data flow of informations that enter through the eyes.
This means that the hearing baby and the deaf baby, both have different type of software input for eyes or ears.
The software makes our bionic-computer to function and the more data flow of informations that each receives through its eyes or ears, will categorize each of us accordingly as low level, average level or high level minded person.
Macintosh are the Deaf baby.
IBM are the Hearing baby.
Hearing and Deaf babies, both require different software to be able function for its highest potential capability to learn… the earlier, the better.
This is why Deaf babies and children must have bilingual education- ASL/English(reading and writing) to be able learn to achieve the level at its highest potential capability.
These Eye software input bilingual education program are for babies that don’t have the natural Ear software input capability.
Over the years, we, the deaf people, or should I say, the Mac computers have been using the IBM “ear” software indoctrinated by the so-call-experts ( i.e. AGBell ) thinking that we deaf (Mac) people could hear and speak 100% like hearing (IBM) people.

The Deaf babies have been deprived of having the use of appropriated software program to be able to function fully like hearing babies since 1880.
Parents of Deaf children need to grasp this simple concept.

Barb DiGi

April 7, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Well, I couldn’t get to publish my comments to respond to Ann C since it is not coming out. You can always visit my blog at http://www.barbdigi.com to continue the dialogue since I don’t want to “dictate” Rachel’s blog as being accused by one of the commenters. So long!

John

April 7, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Thought maybe some would be interesting to read this;

MAC and IBM Computer – Same? – Different?

Deaf and Hearing people – Same? – Different?
This is my analogy about how Deaf and Hearing adults or children or babies are created differently just like a Mac or IBM. They, hearing and deaf people are the same in very way just like a Mac or IBM. But the only difference is the software program. The software disc that you put in the Mac or IBM computer got data information that the Mac or IBM understands what it written(embedded) in it and functions according how you communicate with the keyboard. The software disc could be Word processor program, accounting program, video game program, drawing program like Photoshop, etc.
Hearing and Deaf people are human bionic-computers. Before I go any further explaining more about what I will write on this post, you might ask this question, what is a bionic-computer?
Bionic-computer is a human being that its brain can compute to do things such as like calculating the coordination while walking or picking things up, etc. Your brain is always computing like a calculator doing the adding, subtracting, etc while controlling your balance, reaching for something, jumping or hopping over something, etc.
No one was born as a full functioning bionic-computer human being. Keep in mind that we all had to learn to crawl, walk, talk, sign, run, respond, think, etc since the day we were born. Our parents were the main educators, motivators, etc in the beginning of our lives. Then teachers, your peers, people, media, TV, etc became additional educators, motivators, etc. This process is the education of our bionic-computer body(mind) that goes on until the day we die.
One more thing that I want to say about the terminology of the two words;
Software and Hardware.
The computer that you are using right now while reading this post is call hardware.
The disc that you put in the computer contains data so you can watch movies or video game or Microsoft Word is call software.
The Human Bionic-Computer is the hardware of the human anatomy. This would include the brain, internal organs, and other human organ systems such as Cardiovascular, Endocrine, Immune, Muscular, nervous, Reproductive, Respiratory, Skeletal and Urinary systems.
Your bionic-computer has stored program properties and self- metaprogramming properties, with limits determinable and to be determined.
You might ask, what is metaprogramming??
Metaprogram is defined as a set of instructions, descriptions and means of control of sets of program.
How did we get the metaprogramming properties?
You got them since the day you were born, from your parents, teachers, etc. It is the software education that you have and it is stored in your brain.
Now, let’s go back a little about what I wrote above;
The bionic-computer has stored program properties and self- metaprogramming properties, with limits determinable and to be determined.
You might ask, what you mean by with limits determinable and to be determined.?It means that it depends on how you have been educated, how much data flow you have gotten or able to receive from your parents or teachers in early childhood, etc.
It could also means that it depends on if you are deaf or hearing. In this society now days, a deaf person will have a good chance to get into the phrase of with limits determinable and to be determined.
This is very, very important to keep this in mind as you read on in my post.
The title of this post is
MAC and IBM Computer – Same? – Different?
This is the same as if I had said,
Deaf and Hearing Babies – Same? – Different?
What is really the different between a Mac and IBM computer?
They both look alike, same hardware, functions the same. They both have low level, average level and high level performance.
Just like in the society, we have low level, average level and high level minded human beings. You might ask, why do we have three levels.?With the computers (Mac/IBM), it depends on the speed of calculating, the amount of ram memory and the software program.?With human being (bionic-computer), it depends on the early childhood of language foundation, how much you’ve learned the software program.
You might ask, what was our human software program?
Well, for a hearing baby, it was the data flow of informations that enter through the ears.
And for the deaf baby, it was the data flow of informations that enter through the eyes.
This means that the hearing baby and the deaf baby, both have different type of software input for eyes or ears.
The software makes our bionic-computer to function and the more data flow of informations that each receives through its eyes or ears, will categorize each of us accordingly as low level, average level or high level minded person.
Macintosh are the Deaf baby.
IBM are the Hearing baby.
Hearing and Deaf babies, both require different software to be able function for its highest potential capability to learn… the earlier, the better.
This is why Deaf babies and children must have bilingual education- ASL/English(reading and writing) to be able learn to achieve the level at its highest potential capability.
These Eye software input bilingual education program are for babies that don’t have the natural Ear software input capability.
Over the years, we, the deaf people, or should I say, the Mac computers have been using the IBM “ear” software indoctrinated by the so-call-experts ( i.e. AGBell ) thinking that we deaf (Mac) people could hear and speak 100% like hearing (IBM) people.

The Deaf babies have been deprived of having the use of appropriated software program to be able to function fully like hearing babies since 1880.
Parents of Deaf children need to grasp this simple concept.

John

April 7, 2008 at 3:17 pm

Thought some of you be interesting reading this;

Deaf and Hearing people – Same? – Different?

This is my analogy about how Deaf and Hearing adults or children or babies are created differently just like a Mac or IBM. They, hearing and deaf people are the same in very way just like a Mac or IBM. But the only difference is the software program. The software disc that you put in the Mac or IBM computer got data information that the Mac or IBM understands what it written(embedded) in it and functions according how you communicate with the keyboard. The software disc could be Word processor program, accounting program, video game program, drawing program like Photoshop, etc.
Hearing and Deaf people are human bionic-computers. Before I go any further explaining more about what I will write on this post, you might ask this question, what is a bionic-computer?
Bionic-computer is a human being that its brain can compute to do things such as like calculating the coordination while walking or picking things up, etc. Your brain is always computing like a calculator doing the adding, subtracting, etc while controlling your balance, reaching for something, jumping or hopping over something, etc.
No one was born as a full functioning bionic-computer human being. Keep in mind that we all had to learn to crawl, walk, talk, sign, run, respond, think, etc since the day we were born. Our parents were the main educators, motivators, etc in the beginning of our lives. Then teachers, your peers, people, media, TV, etc became additional educators, motivators, etc. This process is the education of our bionic-computer body(mind) that goes on until the day we die.
One more thing that I want to say about the terminology of the two words;
Software and Hardware.
The computer that you are using right now while reading this post is call hardware.
The disc that you put in the computer contains data so you can watch movies or video game or Microsoft Word is call software.
The Human Bionic-Computer is the hardware of the human anatomy. This would include the brain, internal organs, and other human organ systems such as Cardiovascular, Endocrine, Immune, Muscular, nervous, Reproductive, Respiratory, Skeletal and Urinary systems.
Your bionic-computer has stored program properties and self- metaprogramming properties, with limits determinable and to be determined.
You might ask, what is metaprogramming?
Metaprogram is defined as a set of instructions, descriptions and means of control of sets of program.
How did we get the metaprogramming properties?
You got them since the day you were born, from your parents, teachers, etc. It is the software education that you have and it is stored in your brain.
Now, let’s go back a little about what I wrote above;
The bionic-computer has stored program properties and self- metaprogramming properties, with limits determinable and to be determined.
You might ask, what you mean by with limits determinable and to be determined.
It means that it depends on how you have been educated, how much data flow you have gotten or able to receive from your parents or teachers in early childhood, etc.
It could also means that it depends on if you are deaf or hearing. In this society now days, a deaf person will have a good chance to get into the phrase of with limits determinable and to be determined.
This is very, very important to keep this in mind as you read on in my post.
The title of this post is
MAC and IBM Computer – Same? – Different?
This is the same as if I had said,
Deaf and Hearing Babies – Same? – Different?
What is really the different between a Mac and IBM computer?
They both look alike, same hardware, functions the same. They both have low level, average level and high level performance.
Just like in the society, we have low level, average level and high level minded human beings. You might ask, why do we have three levels.
With the computers (Mac/IBM), it depends on the speed of calculating, the amount of ram memory and the software program.
With human being (bionic-computer), it depends on the early childhood of language foundation, how much you’ve learned the software program.
You might ask, what was our human software program?
Well, for a hearing baby, it was the data flow of informations that enter through the ears.
And for the deaf baby, it was the data flow of informations that enter through the eyes.
This means that the hearing baby and the deaf baby, both have different type of software input for eyes or ears.
The software makes our bionic-computer to function and the more data flow of informations that each receives through its eyes or ears, will categorize each of us accordingly as low level, average level or high level minded person.
Macintosh are the Deaf baby.
IBM are the Hearing baby.
Hearing and Deaf babies, both require different software to be able function for its highest potential capability to learn… the earlier, the better.
This is why Deaf babies and children must have bilingual education- ASL/English(reading and writing) to be able learn to achieve the level at its highest potential capability.
These Eye software input bilingual education program are for babies that don’t have the natural Ear software input capability.
Over the years, we, the deaf people, or should I say, the Mac computers have been using the IBM “ear” software indoctrinated by the so-call-experts ( i.e. AGBell ) thinking that we deaf (Mac) people could hear and speak 100% like hearing (IBM) people.

The Deaf babies have been deprived of having the use of appropriated software program to be able to function fully like hearing babies since 1880.

John

April 7, 2008 at 3:19 pm

Oops,
Please delete the last two “Deaf and Hearing people – Same? – Different?”

Thank you

John

CANDY

April 7, 2008 at 3:19 pm

I’ve asked for the same thing. I was told if ASL was added to AVT, it wouldn’t be AVT at all. Karen, did you read the latest PDF research link that Melissa provided? I suggest you read it.

Fact here is if I had a deaf child, I would not go the CI route at all simply because deaf genes runs in my family and I’m comfortable with Bi Bi approach for now. I might even add AVT too if my child has residual hearing. I might even throw in hearing aids since it works great for me. But, that’s me, based on my experience and based on my family’s genetic deafness. WE know what to do.

But, for parents who do not know ASL and who have done research and decided they want to go CI route. It has been proven that in order for CI to be successful for the purpose that it was intended to be, AVT needs to be part of it and that ASL should not be exposed.

There’s no way a parent can go back to the providers and complain if the implant didn’t work since they didn’t follow the recommended practice.

Same with any medical procedures. If you don’t follow what is recommended, then you can’t expect things to work out the way its supposed to.

Older and Wiser

April 7, 2008 at 3:23 pm

AVT stands for Auditory Verbal Training, this means it is based on 100% auditory so I do not understand how ASL can fit in with the AVT process. If you added ASL to it, then it is no longer AVT because it would not be 100% auditory based. It would have a different name to the method used so it is my opinion that trying to add ASL to the AVT process its basically a moot point.

The bigger question is whether AVT is the best method for CI implantees and thats where I want to see an unbiased research document, because as I said earlier, if it is 50.1% success, then that number just isnt good enough for me and if that number was applied to hearing people, you would see an outcry in Congress over it.

What I was trying to promote earlier is the fact that baby signs are used before the AVT process begins so the baby starts the language development at an earlier age and as the AVT process is used over time there is a transition where baby signs, which is based on ASL, are weaned away as the child is able to communicate back verbally. Of course, if the child liked ASL enough and wants continue to use it, then feel free to do so.

Now there are some comments/questions that I wanted to respond/ask to since my last post.

#81 – Melissa – you mentioned your girls repeat the sounds that they hear, considering you’re in Atlanta, it has me wondering if your girls speak with a southern drawl and/or accent?

#153 – Barb – you say you were a product of AVT? I would be somewhat surprised if AVT programs actually existed when you were a child although I can understand if you say you were a product of an oral education program but was it actually AVT? We’re talking about two different “schools of thought” here.

#166 – Melissa – While I applaud the success that your girls are having and my hat is off to you, a clarification needs to be made in this comment. “If they were relegated to written English, Jessica would not be attending the private school where she currently is thriving, and Rachel would not be the Features Editor of her college newspaper because, in order to do so, she needs to communicate orally both in person and on the phone with the rest of the newspaper staff.”

There are deaf children who’s primary mode of communication is ASL and they do attend private schools, and this includes some of the most prestigious colleges in the country. As for being an editor, someone please correct me if I am wrong here, but I somewhat recall reading somewhere that there were actually many deaf editors of newspapers before the Milan conference in 1880? We are living in the age of technology where emails are used just as easily as a phone call. I just wanted to bring this up because your statement could possibly lead others to beleiver that signers would not be able to do the equivalency and they are indeed capable of doing so.

On the flip side of the same coin, I know of several successful hearing businessmen, but their written English is quite below par. They rely on their speaking abilities and often referred to being “street-smart” and they usually try to avoid emails because they are too embarassed about their written English.

Older and Wiser

April 7, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Barb – disgrard my last question, you answered it in #175 as I was typing my last response.

Karen Mayes

April 7, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Thanks, Candy… I am looking for it now….

Shelley Potma

April 7, 2008 at 3:46 pm

In Ontario, Canada, there are AVT therapists who tell parents that if they expose their babies to ASL, they will be kicked OFF their client lists. There are MANY parents who would love to provide both ASL and AVT therapy for their babies, but are often intimidated. They either toe the AVT line, OR hire ASL tutors on the sly so their AVT therapists don’t find out and boot them off their client list.

If that is not coercion, and not telling parents how to raise their Deaf children, I don’t know what it is. That is why I, as a Deaf educator, see CI students who have not benefitted from AVT therapy fall through the cracks. Those children have not had the benefit of ASL as a safety net. Too many children in USA experience the same lack of exposure to ASL even when implanted and struggle with AVT therapy.

DBC has been formed to ensure that children are able to receive the benefits of ASL even with CI and AVT training. I am opposed to AVT as the ONLY venue to language for children. Parents can expose their children to AVT therapy, but please DO NOT deprive them of ASL as a first or second language. I do not believe that ASL harms the development of spoken English. Read the research material that Barb has provided.

Questions to Melissa who stated, “You will have to provide me with significant research studies out of institutions other than Gallaudet or RIT to convince me that, somehow, deaf children whose hearing is their weaker sense, can somehow fully master spoken English as a second language.”

Do you realize that Gallaudet and RIT are places that SPECIALIZES in Deaf Education and Deaf-related topics? Are you saying that Gallaudet and RIT research information are not good enough for you? Are you saying that you would have more respect for that research IF they came from hearing universities that have NO expertise in the field? Please clarify your position. I sincerely want to know.

Thank you,
Shel

John

April 7, 2008 at 4:26 pm

Some of you are hollering, “One Size Shoe DOES NOT FIT All”

EXACTLY!

Back in 1880 Milan along with AG Bell wanted “Oral Only Method”, which should have applied to the natural language(ASL) of the Deaf but instead, they eliminated it totally. And got rid of all the Deaf teachers.

Just where some of you get that concept that terminology “One Size Shoe DOES NOT FIT All” while AGBell did used that ideology of “Oral only method” which is “One Size Shoe DOES FIT All”, not “One Size Shoe DOES NOT FIT All” which is true.

Even today AGBell/AVT and its associates tell parents of deaf babies to focus on one method “Oral only method” which is the same as “One Size Shoe [“Oral only method”} DOES FIT All”.

John

Paotie

April 7, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Rachel ..

I’ve been accused of somehow being audist towards Mr. Egbert because of my English use, so you’re not the first person he’s criticized before.

I do want to direct you to an article that dissected Mr. Egbert’s bloody of a pulp book of fiction called, “Mindfield.” The author of the article is a well-known Deaf blogger from DeafDC.com.

Quotes regarding Mr. Egbert’s book:

“By page six I wanted to throw the book in the trash.

Though usually I have a 100-page rule in which authors have a hundred pages with which to capture my attention, the spelling and grammar errors and typos alone were frustrating enough without the stilted and artificial dialogue style and the unimaginative wording that felt cribbed from a dozen other conspiracy theory novels and stitched together here.”

“Unfortunately, instead of turning this into a human suspense novel at this point (which is something the best thriller novels do), Egbert veers toward the conspiracy theory thread, portraying Halley as a helpless brainwashed victim of the corporate powermongers who lead AG Bell.”

“For a book that’s supposed to spread understanding in the minds of clueless hearing readers, that was a severe misstep. Now they have no reason to understand why oralism-only isn’t always a great idea, and they do have reason to think deaf people, even the ones intelligent enough to write a book, are incapable of making a reasoned or convincing argument.”

Click here.

I didn’t make this up!

Gawrsh! No wonder the DBC still sucks!

:o)

Paotie

John

April 7, 2008 at 5:08 pm

Paotie,

I have many hearing students that read the book from University of Minnesota and their testimonials have said that they now understood about ASL and Deaf Culture.

Have you read the book?

John

a deafie

April 7, 2008 at 5:11 pm

A bit of history tidbit here:

Did you know that there were a lot of deaf teachers back in 1880′s and then when the Milan conference started with Edward Miner Gallaudet and Alexander Graham Bell in Italy — they argued back and forth about ASL and oralism. AG Bell subsquently won the battle and many of these deaf teachers lost their jobs.

Now we are seeing history being repeated again here with AVT. How can we deaf teachers work with these deaf children if ASL is forbidden? You’ll be laying off a lot of these deaf teachers and para-professionals which is not good. We’ll be out of jobs and then what do we do? Deaf children need deaf role models. They need to see that we are here, we are capable of doing things and that we are just fine as they are. When I grew up, I NEVER saw a deaf adult until I reached to middle school and I finally met deaf adults. How did that make me feel? Relieved of course as I didn’t know what I would be when I grew up.

You are the ones who are building the wall against us, not us.

Deaf/Oral Linda

April 7, 2008 at 5:12 pm

#160 ChrisH

I know ASL, Oral, and CI are always deaf. Barb DiGi accused my hearing parents and hearing parents ABUSED & NEGLECTED CI and oral children. She is wrong and misunderstood. My parents raised me as good family. Barb also said Oral are BRAINWASH, BRAINSICK, LOW-MINDED, blah blah….. Look at me *I have good brain*

ABUSE = Violence means hurt children

#153 Barb DiGi

You can LAUGH…I don’t want to buy your sick yellow T-Shirt with picture Deaf Baby with Cuff. ummmm no comment.

Paotie

April 7, 2008 at 5:13 pm

John ..

I have read excerpts of your book.

That was terribly too much.

:o)

Paotie

mom2boys'

April 7, 2008 at 5:13 pm

John and others,

You and others know that many mean pick an approach and stick with it.

If I choose to have my son’s primary language be English, why would I then make ASL his primary language….which is what you are promoting. DBC, please excuse the slip earlier, IS saying that they believe ASL should be the PRIMARY language.

As Older and Wiser said, AVT wouldn’t be AVT if you add ASL. How would an auditory only approach then turn around and add ASL? It wouldn’t be an auditory approach anymore??

Again I must speak from my experience of 4 years at the same AVT Center…..the therapists know within a limited amount of time if an auditory only approach is working for the child. They evaluate the child on day one. Evaluate at each session. Make detailed observations and notes. Know if you’re doing your “homework”…..because the child is evidence of the work you’re doing with him or her. Meet as a staff with any questions or concerns. It’s constant communication, feedback, evaluation, etc. They DO NOT keep a child in a program if it is not working for the child. They, too, want the child to have language, and if AVT isn’t the right fit, they are the first to admit it. These therapists at our center are certified AVT. They have tons of training and were either teachers of the deaf or SLP’s with Master’s degrees and experience prior to certification. They do not have to hang on to clients to make money, etc. Our center enrolls approximately 4 new children per month. It may be more, but I’d have to check. If a parent wants the program to work for his or her child, the guidelines should be followed. It is that simple. Someone else said that above. It works. Look at Rachel….do you think she’s anomaly? Couldn’t be I guess, look at her sister.

Why can’t we all just agree to disagree. Call it a day. Do what we believe is best for our children.

John

April 7, 2008 at 5:13 pm

And,

Paotie,

Why you keep saying that DBC sucks?

What can you do to help about Deaf babies to learn a cognitive language that have been off course since 1880 Milan?

You need to “Do It”……… “not motor mouth about it!

Paotie, I know you can be very good about Deaf issue but you seem to enjoy more about bashing.

John

a deafie

April 7, 2008 at 5:16 pm

And one more that I forgot to add:

Parents are advised to spend many countless hours with their deaf child on AVT at home. They are willing to do this. But when it comes in learning ASL, they don’t want to spend hours in learning ASL. What is the difference?? Both require a lot of parental hours.

I just finished reading a book, “Hearing Father, Deaf Daughter”, this father took his time to take classes to learn ASL so that he could communicate with his daughter. It is a very heartwarming and moving book. It proves that he was successful in communicating with his daughter and that his daughter was doing well in school that she became one of the top students.

Paotie

April 7, 2008 at 5:22 pm

John ..

I ain’t gonna do nothin’ to help babies learn a cognitive language. If it ain’t my kid, I ain’t gonna do nothin’ about it.

And you don’t need to tell me what to do, either, Mr. Egbert – I can think for myself.

:o)

Paotie

a deafie

April 7, 2008 at 5:23 pm

I’ve been hearing that a lot of hearing people complain that deaf people tend to live on SSI/welfare, well if we get laid off from our teaching/paraprofessional jobs, whose fault is it??

Think about it…

Deaf teachers/paraprofessionals are here to stay. They want to work with deaf children but if AVT advocates in forbidding ASL, then how can we work with them when our hands are tied behind our backs.

AVT teachers are literally stealing our jobs and taking away our ASL and working with deaf children because they know they can make a lot of money in that field.

I don’t think you have thought about this.

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Answer to Older and Wiser -

My girls don’t speak with a southern accent. Rachel actually lived in Boston until she was 4. Plus, my husband and I and about 55% of the rest of the area where we live are from the northeast. As a result, all three of my children, including my son who has normal hearing and was 5 months old when we moved here, speak with a neutral accent.

I had mentioned in a comment to a previous post that Jessica could not attend the private school where she is if she couldn’t hear and speak because, at least in our state, the special ed laws do not apply to children whose parents voluntarily put them in a private school. The only accommodation Jessica needs is a portable soundfield system, which we had to purchase. If she needed an interpreter, she couldn’t go to the school unless we were wealthy enough to provide one full-time, which we’re not.

Rachel certainly could have been an editor without hearing, but I doubt it would have happened so easily at her current school because everyone there communicates through spoken language. At the very least, being able to communicate orally with ease has facilitated her job.

Chris

April 7, 2008 at 5:28 pm

Deafie,

It is all about stigmatation that AGBell succeeded among people that they should not spend any time with sign language, ASL.

They know that these people will believe them.

It is really sad.

Chris

April 7, 2008 at 5:33 pm

PAOTIE!…..WHAT!

“I ain’t gonna do nothin’ to help babies learn a cognitive language. If it ain’t my kid, I ain’t gonna do nothin’ about it.”

WOW!

VERY SELF-CENTERED PERSON! YOU ARE, PAOTIE

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 5:42 pm

To Shelley in #189 -

Don’t you realize that CID specializes in deaf education? So, if Barb and John and others don’t think that research coming out of CID is legitimate, then why should I trust research out of Gallaudet or CID?

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 5:43 pm

To a deafie in #200 -

Yours is the most selfish argument I’ve heard. Those of us, both parents and professionals, who believe in AVT should not follow AVT so that we can save your job? What about the wellbeing of our kids? What about the jobs of the AV therapists? Why is your job what is the most important? Also, why is it that you think AV therapists are getting rich off of AVT? As a former board member of an AV center, I can tell you that nothing is further from the truth. They are paid as teachers are. Furthermore, our AV center is a nonprofit and so there isn’t a lot of money to go around.

Karen Mayes

April 7, 2008 at 5:46 pm

Oh boy.

Okay, I am calling it a day…

Enjoyed reading and making the comments. There is no easy answer, after all.

We the parents want the best for our deaf children so we are their best advocates. The best advocacy skill is LOVE.

Ann_C

April 7, 2008 at 5:47 pm

I’m glad that Rachel has had success with her CI and her AVT therapy along with her parents’ commitment has made it possible for her to interact in spoken language with her hearing peers.

However, many of us d/Deaf have encountered at least one oral or AVT “failure”, I hate that term– I prefer the term another commenter brought up, the approach failed the child rather– but am using the term that many readers are familiar with. No doubt deaf educators and counselors see more failure examples because the deaf education system is the “last resort” for oral/AVT failures today. These deaf individuals fell thru the cracks and didn’t gain the language acquisition early enough to be on par with their hearing peers in education. These are the individuals we’ve been discussing on this post, there’s no sugar-coating the fact that these people do exist.

No program is 100 percent failure-proof, there is bound to be a failure rate whether it’s AVT, AV, oral, TC, and/or other methods. And there are many factors involved in each “failure”– lack of parental commitment, or a lack of therapy resources in a rural area, or the child may be a visual learner versus an auditory learner, or the age at which the child was implanted, or learning disabilities compounded with deafness, the list goes on.

Many of us d/Deaf have acknowledged for a long time that there needs to be a backup or as I call it, a plan B, should there be indications that the deaf child is not picking up spoken language on schedule, or not on par with his hearing peers. Sign language is very visual for a youngster already using his eyes to make up for what he cannot comprehend aurally.

ASL becomes “the shoe that finally fits” AFTER some or all the other shoes have been tried, AFTER it’s too late for the child’s language acquisition and then it’s catch-up forever after for the individual as he grows up into an adult. Not a wonder that ASL gets stigmatized, it’s the “last resort” language as well.

Chris

April 7, 2008 at 5:56 pm

Mr Dawson, aka, Paotie,

you say;

“I ain’t gonna do nothin’ to help babies learn a cognitive language. If it ain’t my kid, I ain’t gonna do nothin’ about it.”

What do you care?…….How do you like to treat people or Deaf babies?…….

“I ain’t gonna do nothin’ to help babies learn a cognitive language. If it ain’t my kid, I ain’t gonna do nothin’ about it.”…..

Look at yourself….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0G6kuojoWI

The kind of person you are?

ChrisH

April 7, 2008 at 5:59 pm

During 1950′s, black people weren’t allowed to become a profession.

Yes, Deaf teachers/paraprofessionals are here to stay. ASL is here to stay.

http://blogs.nad.org/president/?p=13

ChrisH

April 7, 2008 at 6:03 pm

Yes, Deaf teachers/paraprofessionals are here to stay and ASL is here to stay.

http://blogs.nad.org/president/?p=13

ChrisH

April 7, 2008 at 6:05 pm

hello

shel

April 7, 2008 at 6:33 pm

I agree with Chris..it is about the stigmatization that AGBell has about ASL and why it is ok to use ASL as a last resort.

I see hundreds of deaf children who are so delayed cuz of the AVT approach. If they had been exposed to ASL from the get go, whether it was at home or at the educational setting, they wouldnt be struggling with literacy skills.

David

April 7, 2008 at 6:43 pm

Melissa,
I waited to see if any one else would “call your hand” on comment #81 re: “natural voice quality”. If that is a measure of “success” with CI, then Rachel fails!
I have asked several hearing friends to listen to the two recent videos Rachel has posted in which she speaks, and all tell me that Rachel’s speech and voice quality are adequate, but not “normal” or “natural”. I asked about several deaf kids we know and the report is that some of the deaf kids without CI speak better than Rachel and some of the deaf kids with CI speak more poorly.
It seems almost universal that the hearing parents of deaf kids expect the CI to make their kids speak in a way that cannot be distinguished from their hearing peers. I have never observed this, yet the expectation persists.
Having said that, speech quality, like lipreading skill, is *not* linked directly with intelligence and not strictly linked to hearing alone, otherwise hearing kids would never need speech therapy, but clearly some do.

David

White Ghost

April 7, 2008 at 7:10 pm

Whoa! Over two hundred comments.

I congratulate you for being the most controversial blogger! You should be getting the “Most Controversial Blogger 2008″ award from the Deafread! I’d vote for ya.

Way to go, gal!

Chris, nice try for being harassed to all of us whom you disagree. I enjoy yours.

That’s maravilloso!

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 7:20 pm

To David in #211 – Since you can’t hear for yourself how Rachel sounds, then you are not really qualified to pass judgment. Rachel’s speech is very clear. There is not a hearing person who has any difficulty understanding her. The only speech sound that she has that is not 100% is her R. No hearing person who meets her is aware that she is deaf. They occasionally ask her where she is from, but that is it. AVT provided her with excellent speech, especially considering that she heard nothing until she was 2 years 8 months old. Her voice quality is far more than “adequate,” but I guess putting her down makes you feel better. Why don’t you put your spoken voice on YouTube and let us hear you?

Why don’t you ask your hearing friends to listen to Jessica, who was implanted at age 15 months, at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ae2VW6NMZE

or another AV child at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNFnpZAtK9c

who was implanted at age 9 months,

or most of the kids at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjT9zOijyLQ&feature=related

Only one of the kids on this video has a typical deaf voice, and even so she has very clear speech. She wore hearing aids until getting a CI at age 15, which accounts for the difference. If they tell you that most of these kids don’t have a totally natural voice quality, then they are lying to you.

Cindy

April 7, 2008 at 7:22 pm

People,

You are smart enough not be be stigmatize by AGBell/AVT and its associates of their necessity because of their self-centered ideology, but it really seems that “you” prefer to be stigmatized by the “seemly” superior type of these people rather than “genuine” type of people that have been through that reality.

Please open your mind and see who is telling you the truth from their heart. Not their necessity of money.

Which is more important, humanity or money?

For your child?

These people generated millions of dollars for themselves, not for your child… but from YOU!.

And they say, THANK YOU!

Morality ideology is who we are, and….THEY…. (AGBell/AVT) are more on the monetary side of ideology to help you.

Sorry to tell you the reality that you are actually in this kind of life and you are in a very naive state of mind to be taken advantage of.

We care about Deaf Babies and They (AGBell/AVT) care about your (their) money.

Please think of your kids as much as we do with your hearts. We “were” like them too… before it was too late…but we survived.

Realized later in life,
Cindy

Rox

April 7, 2008 at 7:26 pm

Open-Minded Deaf Person, I’m sorry that you feel the way that you do, but I beg to differ with some of what you have written.

I do not speak nor hear (100 dB loss in both ears, and I threw out my hearing aids years ago). I can use interpreters if I want to, but in all honesty, there have been many situations where, if there was no interpreter, I would still get by. I was a teacher of hearing children for two years, and I never spoke a word, nor did I have an interpreter (except for required workshops, which the school was happy to provide for me). The parents and students loved me and I had great evaluations! Don’t let anybody tell you what you can and can’t do. If you have the confidence and the self-esteem, you can do anything! And it doesn’t always require an interpreter!

Melissa,
You may want to visit a Bi-Bi program to see what it is really all about. You seem to have some misconceptions about it.

And in 204: “Don’t you realize that CID specializes in deaf education? So, if Barb and John and others don’t think that research coming out of CID is legitimate, then why should I trust research out of Gallaudet or CID?” CID is a school. Gallaudet and NTID are universities. There’s a big difference there.

Ann 207: This is exactly why we advocate ASL first! So that they will have full access to a language first. It is very rare that ASL doesn’t work for a child, and if the ASL is dropped in favor of a better method (AVT or mainstreaming or whatever), then nothing is lost!

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 7:29 pm

Rox,

Check out http://www.cid.edu/home/CIDatWUSM%20scientists.htm

CID’s research department is affiliated with Washington University in St. Louis, a highly renown university, and their top researchers are all PhDs. To quote the website, “All CID at Washington University School of Medicine scientists listed have faculty appointments. ” They are at least as qualified as NTID and Gallaudet to conduct deafness research.

Rox

April 7, 2008 at 7:36 pm

Melissa and David, My hearing husband said the same thing about Rachel’s voice. Sometimes it’s hard to remove bias when it’s your own child. This is not meant to be an attack or criticism of Rachel or her voice, but David is not alone in this belief. Nobody’s going to put their voice on youtube because we have nothing to prove. Rachel’s video just weakens your (Melissa’s) statement about “natural voice quality”

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 7:38 pm

And, here is a profile of Ann Geers, whose research I cited. She is now in Dallas but used to be at CID:

Dr. Ann Geers

Dr. Geers received her Ph.D. in Pyschology from Washington University in 1977. She has a long and distinguished career with the Central Institute for the Deaf in St. Louis serving as a research scientist and Director of Clinical Services. She is an adjunct Professor in the department of Otolaryngology/Head and Neck Surgery at The University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. Her research interests include the developmental evaluation of deaf children after cochlear implantation.

Sounds like legitimate qualifications for doing research to me. If your only criteria for classifying her research as not legitimate or believable is that you don’t agree with her, then that’s hardly adequate. You’d better find someone with credentials equal to hers who has studied the same populations.

Li-Li's Mom

April 7, 2008 at 7:39 pm

Hi Melissa!
You asked about how those of us who use the bi-bi approach employ our teaching/learning methodologies at home, and referred to storytime. I think someone else explained that bi-bi approach refers to the learning environment at school, not a methodology. But in terms of how we fit ASL and spoken English into my family’s life, it goes roughly like this:

In the car, when swimming, at the beach, at bathtime, in the mornings, at breakfast and while in bed, in crowds, across rooms, we sign together. Over dinner, at storytime (before in-bed storytime), when we dance and sing, when playing games, doing crafts and other activities using our hands, we speak English.

In our family sign classes we support signing with spoken English (especially when my husband and I cheat, but our teacher is an excellent lipreader and pretty much always catches us), and in aural rehabilitation classes (at least 4 sessions a week my husband and I attend – we alternate or we’d lose our jobs – with our SLPs plus our own less formal speech sessions at home), we support many of the exercises and activities common in AVT with sign (all of our SLPs are fluent at ASL and easily shift form one to the other).

On weekends, we mix it up.

It works out that at home we’re doing a lot more speaking than sign, simply because my husband and I are at the toddler level in learning ASL and we often have more complex issues than the average toddler to deal with , so although Li-Li gets some quality direct learning in ASL, she also gets all that passive learning in spoken English. To balance this inequality and give her ASL language (not just vocabulary) , she attends school / childcare 4 days a week at a school for the deaf where she receives both ASL immersion programs and a spoken English/ASL environment with a mix of deaf and hearing teachers and students.

But I’d never say I was an advocate for this approach — this is entirely customized to us and to our particular environment and abilities. I’m thrilled with any approach that works for a family, CI or not, and I think you’ve proven that AVT was the perfect choice for your children and your home!

Rox

April 7, 2008 at 7:45 pm

Melissa, I read the website (CID), and I certainly am not impressed. Here’s what I see… head and neck surgery, otolaryngology, audiology, stem cell therapies, cellular mechanisms, aural rehabilitation, speech, anatomy, hearing loss, tissue destruction, cochlear implants, clinical epidemiology, hearing aids… and many others. Many of those focus on the physical, medical aspect of hearing loss, or speech and hearing. Where’s the education part? I see ONE person that specializes in language acquisition. Gallaudet University focuses on the WHOLE deaf person, including sociology, linguistics, education, mental health, and many others. So I guess if you want your child to be able to speak and hear, go with CID’s research. If you want your child to be happy and a whole person, go with Gallaudet’s research.

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 7:45 pm

Li-Li’s Mom,

I appreciate your explanation. As I’ve said before, committed and involved parents are the key.

One question – Do you know yet what you plan to do for kindergarten and up, keep her at the school for the deaf or send her to a mainstream kindergarten?

Melissa

April 7, 2008 at 7:52 pm

Rox,

If you do a google search for Johanna Nicholas and Nancy Tye Murray, you will find a wealth of years of research related to language and hearing. The same goes for Ann Geers. In addition, Johanna Nicholas is now doing a follow-up study to the Geers one that I cited. The conclusion of the original study states

“Use of an oral communication mode contributed significant variance to all outcomes except for spoken and signed language. The greater the emphasis on speech and auditory skill development the better the outcome. Type of classroom reflects amount of time spent in a mainstream class. This variable was significant for speech production, language and reading.

“…Children whose educational program emphasized dependence on speech and audition for communication were better able to use the information provided by the implant to hear, speak and read. Use of sign communication with implanted children did not promote auditory and speech skill development and did not result in an advantage for overall English language competence even when the outcome measure included sign language.”

They have brought back the same group of kids whom they studied years ago when they were in elementary school and are re-evaluating them. These kids are all now high school to college age. I’d be willing to bet a lot of money on the outcome of this latest study.

mom2boys'

April 7, 2008 at 8:07 pm

Deafie,

AVT teachers are literally stealing our jobs and taking away our ASL and working with deaf children because they know they can make a lot of money in that field.

I don’t think you have thought about this.

I have thought about your statement, and I think it is the most ridiculous statement I’ve read thus far ….other than the Russian Roulette one.

Li-Li's Mom

April 7, 2008 at 8:11 pm

Melissa, we’re really agonizing over that one, but we’ve got a few years to go.

We want to stay with TLC, the teachers are amazing and caring (and a few ivy leaguers and Gally hotshots – great deaf role models for the wee one’s self-esteem as well as being wonderful teachers, staff, and interpreters!). We’re definitely staying throughout PreK. But if we had to make the decision about kindergarten and up today, we’d likely have to find someplace else with an established program for CI kids: the handful of CI kids in the current gen. of kindergarteners-to-be are leaving for local CI-specific programs even though they have to give up the signing environment to do so (it’s heartbreaking — everyone loves it there, there just haven’t been enough CI kids until now).

I don’t think that we’d do a mainstream environment for elementary school: where we live, our public school isn’t the right place for her situation, although we’re still researching options, neighborhoods, and even considering heading back down to Virginia where my husband taught at a private school that would provide a perfect environment.

But fortunately we’ve got a large group of CI kids in the early childhood program right now, TLC seems committed to trying to expand its curriculum to make it work, and they have some really great SLPs involved in the early education program. So given that they’ve got a couple of years to build up the latest in educational approaches and resources (and we’re fundraising like mad), we’re remaining uncommitted and open-minded for the time being.

shel

April 7, 2008 at 9:18 pm

Li-Li’s mom,

I did my internship at TLC. I gotta tell you, that is one of the best deaf education programs I have ever seen in my 10 years in the field. I have worked in oral-only, TC, and BiBi programs and nothing I have seen beats TLC hands down!

Mom2boys,

Maybe to you, that’s a silly comment but if u see the several children who were unable to pick up on spoken language and because delayed linguistically, u probably would feel the same as I do. Maybe not. Who knows? We will never know until you and the others learn ASL and immerse yourself in the Deaf community and have both experiences to draw upon. I have had both to compare and I can say that the BiBi approach is the most effective method to ensure that NO child falls through the cracks linguistically.

David

April 7, 2008 at 9:26 pm

Melissa re:#213
I only asked my hearing friends about Rachel’s speech after you made an issue of her speech in several postings. I do not really care how she sounds – I do not care much how *I* sound.
However, I have observed many sets of Hearing parents who seem to expect that a CI will give their child speech that sounds indistinguishable from their Hearing peers *and* that their child will not even need the assistive technology that you say Rachel and Elizabeth use. I have to wonder – do all these sets of parents ignore the same parts of the informed consent information, or is there something amiss with the standard information given these parents at a very vulnerable time in their lives?
I know how informed consent is supposed to work, and I know that in many other settings informed consent is done very poorly and hastily, as just another thing to check off to keep the pencil-pushers happy. I really have to wonder about the information given to the parents of deaf children.

David

Older and Wiser

April 7, 2008 at 9:30 pm

Melissa,

I would have to say that I cannot say that CID would provide unbiased research. I know that because CID was where I had my oral upbringing. ASL has never ever been allowed there and there were times of the “old school” where the students were actually physically punished for using sign language, altho most of that happened before my days at CID.

You’re absolutely right that they have that affiliation with Washington University as that is where CID’s teachers in training are educated at the graduate level. They have absolutely nothing to do with ASL whatsoever so how can that be unbiased research, regardless of how prestigious Washington University is.

Now Gallaudet, as I understand it, has a CI facility on campus so they may be more unbiased than CID, as they cater to all forms of communication modes. Comparing Gallaudet with Washington University would be like comparing apples and oranges. Washington University is much more on the medical side so they may not have the expertise on the education side, they only know oral education and thats it.

I am not going to sit here and say CID is a bad place, because I did significantly benefit from them. However and unfortunately, there are many others that did not. The blame does not lie within the school alone, but also the parents that were not involved extensively with their child’s oral upbringing. The successes that I am aware of, all had extensive parental involvement whereas those that were not as successful did not.

What I am indeed happier to see, is the fact that smaller programs are being set up across the country, such as satellite schools implemented by CID for example, because that allows for more parental involvement, as opposed to placing the students in dormitories.

As I mentioned earlier in a previous blog, I stopped using a hearing aid at a very young age and I am profoundly deaf in both ears. I know I learned to speak and read lips, primarily because of the extensive involvement of my parents, just like you were with your daughters. I would imagine that a significant portion of those that were not as successful is because that they did not have the parental involvement that we had.

Now CID has a reunion every five years and beleive it or not, I would say that less than 5% that attend these reunions do not know any sign language. The wide majority of the attendees there are signers and many of the can indeed be able to communicate with hearing people one way or another. I can tell you that the majority of these attendees wish they had known about the deaf culture at a younger age, regardless of whether or not they can freely communicate in the hearing culture. I count myself among these people.

You say that Rachel is among the first people to use a CI in an AVT program and with her being in college, that also states that it is a good time, as its now been around long enough, to have some unbiased research conducted where we can really know the unbiased percentages of successes and non-successes, of not only AVT, but also ASL, bi-bi, cued speech, etc. (trying to avoid using the word failure here)

mom2boys'

April 7, 2008 at 9:41 pm

Shel,
I really am not going to come back to you with a disparaging comment like your Russian Roulette one. You need to remember that there are parents here who dearly love their children. Dearly. Unconditionally. We would do anything for our children. We have provided them with what we feel is best for them taking into consideration their individual needs. You can talk about your views, but please leave the derogatory comments at home. AVT works for many of our children. They are not deprived. They are not linguistically delayed upon graduation from the programs. They are functioning well with their implants in their worlds. Maybe you should work on your bi-bi program. Develop it, implement it, evaluate it, promote it, and reach out to those who need you. My son has been in a program for 4 years, and he’s heading off to mainstream Kindergarten in the fall. I’m not going to change his life based on anything you are saying here other than to shelter him from comments that belittle him and who he is. Trust me when I say, if AVT did not work for him (he began at 18 months upon diagnosis and is now 5) we would have sought other approaches for him. We would have been guided into such programs by our amazing AVT. He is amazing. He is child. He’s all boy. He’s smart. He tells the funniest stories. He loves life. He loves to listen. He loves to talk to others. He has integrated hearing into his life beautifully. His therapist asked him the other day. What would you do if you went outside and found money on the sidewalk? He said, “I would pick up the dollar, fold it up into a Star Wars ship, and then I’d give it to someone as a present.” He has given us the present of just being him. We have given him the present of language. Please remember we are speaking of children here. Not commodities. Not nameless pictures. I can only speak from experience, and what I see is not what you see.

Li-Li’s mom,

Thanks for sharing. While some suggest visiting a bi-bi approach, I’ll be honest there are none in these here parts. TC yes. Oral yes. AV yes. I appreciate your comments.

Question: With your approach that you’ve designed, is ASL Li-Li’s primary language? Is English her secondary language? Do you speak when you sign or do you keep them separate? Does she have age appropriate language skills in each language? Just wondering..just being open minded:)

mom2boys'

April 7, 2008 at 10:08 pm

Older and Wiser,

My son does have a southern accent detected in his speech which I find facinating. Obviously he hears the accent. He uses our southern colloquialisms like
“YesMaam” “yessir” “ya’ll” “wanna” “gunna” etc. perfectly :)…not the dreaded “ain’t” though. There were a few AV children I met this year who when they spoke were so southern it was like syrup flowing from their mouths. It was great.

Rox

April 7, 2008 at 10:21 pm

Melissa, I won’t deny that the people you cited are prominent and well-educated researchers in their fields. I’m not sure if you understood my point earlier. When I googled the names (in quotes), the only information I could find was on cochlear implant studies, the ear, hearing, otolaryngology, audiologic rehabilitation, and other stuff about hearing and speech. Ann Geers has her Ph.D in Psychology, but all the research she does involves hearing and/or speech as well. I found two related to linguistics (of course, English skills, and that is a whole other argument). I found two others that related to other topics.

Speech, hearing, speech, hearing, speech, hearing, blah, blah, blah. We all know speech and hearing does not correlate to one’s IQ, level of happiness, or level of success (by success, I mean living independently, happily, and pursuing their goals, NOT speech and hearing ability).

By the way, much of their research (from CID) that cites sign language fails to cite ASL. Are they really evaluating children who grew up using ASL, or are they evaluating those who grew up with cued speech, MCE, SEE, or, as I like to call it, “hearing people who THINK they’re signing, but all they’re doing is making a fool of themselves” (we all know the type, don’t we, Deafies???).

Rox

April 7, 2008 at 10:26 pm

mom2boys, you are very much like my own parents, who loved me unconditionally, did everything they could for me, and made what they thought were the best decisions for me.

It is sad that after 28 years, they still think they know what’s best for me, despite me explaining otherwise.

Li-Li's Mom

April 7, 2008 at 11:36 pm

Hi mom2boys, ahhh, my husband would LOVE to hear a little southern flavor in Li-Li’s voice. But even after being activated for only a few months, she’s already got that Boston accent evident in her first words (more and star sound a whole lot like maw and stah — we’ve got to add a few syllables in there and crank up our Rs!).

Li-Li’s primary language is ASL. She tends to interpret, though: For instance, when her SLP asks her “which is the bear?”, “where’s the dog?”, “who eats a carrot?”, etc., she generally signs the answer first, and then points to the appropriate picture or toy. Conversely, when her ASL teacher points to a picture of a snake, a sleeping baby, or a mouse, Li-Li often launches into the associated Ling check responses, verbally, and then provides the sign a moment later.

We’ve got her post-CI eval. at Children’s Hospital, Boston tomorrow, so we’ll soon see if she’s on track for a 2YO (EI evals show a tremendous leap in the past 6 months, even though she came here from a Chinese orphanage in February ’07 after a year of being isolated from any verbal or manual communication. They weren’t aware she was deaf: her behavioral reports said she was “stubborn” and doesn’t listen to caretakers (which is true, though, she is, and she doesn’t !).

Li-Li's Mom

April 7, 2008 at 11:43 pm

Shel, so good to hear wonderful things about TLC from professionals like you — we parents who are there adore the place. My husband and I thank our lucky stars that they opened a staff-only child care program to us (with deaf, HOH, CODAs and hearing kids all mixed together) in addition to the usual early childhood services and programs they offer.

Our TLC SLP voluntarily comes with us to all of Li-Li’s mappings and evals and corresponds regularly with our CI team to make certain that the school is synching up her therapy appropriately. Just need to add in a great CI-focused approach to the kindergarten and upper level curriculum and maintain the great cohort of 5-6 CI kids currently in the early childhood program, and we’ll be very happy!

Mishkazena

April 10, 2008 at 2:26 pm

There are so many things here I want to comment, but won’t with one exception.

For the people who nitpicked the quality of Rachel’s speech, please note that she got her c.i. at the age of 2 years and 8 months, which is considered late nowadays. The age of implantation does make a significant difference. Please listen to the speech of her younger sister Jessica who got implanted at the age of 15 months.

In the successful cases of aural/oral competency with kids implanted less than two years old, even more with one year old or younger, usually their speech cannot be distinguished by their hearing peers. With the not functional cases, it is a different ball-game.

AVmother

April 14, 2008 at 8:51 am

FYI,

Dr. A. G. Bell used a self-created fingerspelling with his mother. He also signed with various people, including (of course) Helen Keller.

Dr. Bell was NOT at the conference at Milan. Yes, he was a proponent of teaching speech to the deaf so that they could be in the mainstream. But he was not a representative at the conference.

Dr. Bell was involved in a large body of teachers of the deaf, years ago. He fought tooth and nail to continue to allow ALL methodologies to be present in the organization. He refused to “wine and dine” legislators as was suggested in order to win approval of his methods. He believed that his ideas should stand on their own merit. He believed this very strongly. He also believed in day schools and mainstreaming. He was not a proponent of boarding schools since this removed kids from their families and communities. His wife and mother (both also deaf) had shown him the benefit of this concept.

Dr. Bell created an organization which now is there to support parents who make the choice to utilize either oral or AV methods. However, any parent of a deaf infant in this country is presented all options in by the people involved in the birth to three programs in each state in the nation. AND, I might say, they are often biased toward sign language programs. Thankfully there IS a private organization which will provide support upon request.

As to the idea that speech is not able to be learned until about 18 months: hogwash. Babies begin listening before birth, and deaf infants can learn to listen very shortly after birth. They can babble as infants and, if implanted early, can develop the normal phonemes AT THE SAME TIME as their hearing peers (and I’ve had a toddler with hundreds of expressive words between 18 and 24 months, so I have firsthand experience). When audition is emphasized early on, they can have their 5 senses sharing the brain as any child’s would, rather than having visual functions become stronger as time passes, failing to relinquish these areas to the auditory sense. Deaf babies are not born with stronger visual senses– this is a myth. Development of the visual senses for language use, will preclude typical development of auditory language, and consequently, speech production.

Thanks, open-minded deaf person, for being happy for kids today who can benefit from a CI. What a breath of fresh air to read about someone who is forward thinking and can be pleased for the future generations, despite their own history. Kids today can easily converse with their peers, and it’s sad when others aren’t thrilled with that prospect. It’s not easy to acknowledge that the path today is different than it was 25 years ago, and it takes a lot of wisdom to separate one’s own experiences from the facts.

An Activist

February 14, 2011 at 12:09 am

Rachel Melissa and all the other AVTers,
Has it occured to you that AVT causes a dhh kid to be DEPENDENT on their hearing aid/CI?
Yes, they can hear and speak (and with fluency all along the spectrum) BUT, they are HELPLESS without the technology. They cannot function without the technology…which is EXPENSIVE. I know of a teen boy whose bilateral CIs both broke. He is literally LOST without his CIs. He can’t even speechread! Whereas a kid who attends a bilingal bicultural program, aquires fluency in BOTH spoken English and ASL!!!!
I know hoh kids who are fluent in ASL and speech and can code switch easily.
Also one thing that I have NEVER seen addressed. AVT is essentially saying that you want your kid to have to endure an eternal speech thereapy session. Why the heck would you want your kid to be in an eternal speech therapy session?
How would you like it if kids made fun of your voice or if people wouldn’t hire you b/c they thought you were retarded b/c of your deaf voice? How would you like it if you were only comfortable talking one on one? You guys neglect stuff like a dhh kid’s mastery of written language, and social emotional issues (you have NO idea how many times I’ve been IMd by dhh oral boys wanting a girlfriend!) or just life acheivement in general.

JessicaB

November 17, 2011 at 2:37 pm

Activist’s comment is an offended! I disagree about CI/hearing aids are dependent. The deaf people don’t have CI or not wear hearing aids are dependent, they are very depend on ASL interpreters. The CI users doesn’t need to have an ASL interpreter because they can hear, speaking skill with device. It mean they are independence without need ASL interpreter.

Open minded’s view like mine but I never attend to Gallaudet University. I had experience in both deaf/hearing world. I’m support the parents choice for deaf babies to have CI not DBC’s own of all deaf babies/children.

I’m giggling at Shel’s comment about her raised oral without ASL, gave it up on oral skill, Remember she don’t have a CI user like Rachel. I believe that CI user between non ci user are different experience. I admire Rachel’s success with CI and AVT. I enjoying read her blog. I joined to CI online on Facebook page fan to support CI.

I love my CI! I can’t live without it!